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Thread: Humidors and ministers and the way some cigar communities work

  1. #1
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    Default Humidors, ministers, kaelarias, and the way some cigar communities work

    Okay, Kaelaria doesn't understand why this community was - and is - so negative to Humidor Minister. Here's why, IMHO.

    First of all, let's look at the product:
    - the exterior work is beautiful;
    - it is not clear how what he makes works as a humidor, as the construction norms do not agree with what is done on all other high-end humidors;
    - he started making humidors a few months ago, so there is no track record; and
    - he has posted (on CP) information that demonstrates that what he has made doesn't work as well as other high-end humidors work.

    Now, none of the above would matter if a hobbyist was making a humidor for himself, or a few buddies, etc. However, this isn't the case at the moment. $800+ gets you a humidor advertised as being "heirloom-quality." That's a high standard, and his humidors don't appear to work like humidors that sell in that price range. Aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder, of course, and I'm not commenting on that. Some folks may have no problem paying for something beautiful that in some ways appears to work no better than an import that costs 1/10th the price.

    So, that's the product side; let's look at the person.
    - he joined boards as soon as he started making humidors, yet says he was smoking for years before that (nine, IIRC). Evidently, there was no reason to join communities beforehand.
    - since joining, he has aggressively marketed his humidors and his expertise, all the time as a hobby.
    - people who gently questioned whether he should be in the vendor section were repeated ignored.
    - only after being bluntly called out by multiple folks did he even entertain being considered a vendor, and even then, it required admin intervention to force him to post as a vendor, and he still didn't appear to understand why.
    - once on the vendor side, he revealed that he was making money. Now, the line between 'hobby' and 'part-time source of income' is legally/morally vague, but we are talking about over $600 income per humidor, net of materials (based on the numbers he posted at CP). Add in the income from ashtrays, and I wouldn't call it a living, or even a good business model, but it is a part-time source of income, IMHO.

    All that happened before he joined here.

    A quick digression about this community. Cigar boards like this one rely on some simple principles. First, when it comes to B/S/T, you don't make a dime - a penny even, off of your fellow BOTL. People who ask for $5 shipping get called on the carpet (the cost is $4.80). If you get a deal on some cigars, you pass on your exact cost or less, not what the market will bear. You don't pass on any auxiliary costs (gas to the post office, packaging, etc.) Essentially, if you are selling cigars and making any profit, then you should not be selling here - unless you are a vendor - and even vendors will get called out if they gouge.

    Another principle is one's participation in the community is exactly that - participation. Giving, not taking. Every couple of months, there will some person coming on here for the sole and/or primary purpose of selling something - often it is <cough> a Canadian selling some Cohiba's that they bought cheap on a beach in Cuba. These people are not treated well - anyone who is suspected of trying to benefit from the community is not treated well.

    Now, as noted above, Humidor Minister was called out rather bluntly over at CP. He then signed up here. The timing is a bit too coincidental, don't you think? His motives were immediately questioned, questioned hard, and, to be blunt, a pile-on ensued. Why? Two reasons: 1. the history was already known; and 2. it appeared that Humidor Minister didn't grasp the principles above, i.e., he doesn't "get it," to use a term often stated on cigar forums such as this one. (www.cigarbbguide.com is a good newbie guide to such terminology, and further explanations about communities like this.)

    Now, I'm sure that Humidor Minister is a fine person. Communications often get misinterpreted when based solely on forum interaction. All of us can only go by what is written. There are other communities - other cigar communities - where he has been, and will be, welcomed. However, the history and what appeared to be his sense of what it meant for him to belong to a community meant that he really didn't belong in this particular community, given the community's standards for integrity. That may change in the future, and that hope has been expressed. People change, communities change. However, personal integrity never changes.

    I hope this helps - maybe it will help more to re-read the threads in question now, making light of the more tobasco parts - because I don't think I'm saying anything new, just saying it differently. This is just MHO. YMMV.
    Last edited by craig; 05-08-2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason: repeated myself, typos, grammar, style, comments incorp'd, etc. + new title
    Craig
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    Well put... I too questioned such a rude welcoming but it makes a lot more sense now than ever.

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    Good post Craig. I disagree that anyone is expected to lose money when trading/selling.....only not profit. If you paid more than MSRP, on say an OPUSx, you should price it at what you paid, and clearly state that in your sell, but you would not be expected to price it at MSRP.

    ETA: Our standard for honesty and integrity, IMHO, extends to manning up and standing behing what you post. Kaeleria, your post on CP indeed referenced "other boards". A look around at the other cigar boards you are a member of didn't show any real overt controversy with HM that I saw......except this one. Your comment was directed at this board and by default our members. As Basil stated, by posting here, you are condoning behaviour and members that at other places embarrasses you.

    So, which is it:
    Did you make an ill advised statement that you regret? or
    Are you so consumed with your desire to publicize your site that you would post anywhere?
    Last edited by ashauler; 05-08-2009 at 03:58 AM. Reason: spelling and to add

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashauler View Post
    Good post Craig. I disagree that anyone is expected to lose money when trading/selling.....only not profit. If you paid more than MSRP, on say an OPUSx, you should price it at what you paid, and clearly state that in your sell, but you would not be expected to price it at MSRP.
    Yup, yup, I was thinking in terms of boxes, peanuts, gas, tape, etc., - not being forced to an MSRP. Thus, there's always a small loss. I'll re-word that bit to make it clearer.
    Craig
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    A cigar storage primer | Basic Cuban cigar info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humidor Minister View Post
    I tried to share my craft here. You started by insulting me. I would have helped anyone that wanted to build their own. I would have got any of you set up with the finest suppliers in the woodworking world. I would have taught anyone that open their mind to it. I would have even made pieces for you to use if you weren't equipped to do it yourself. You think you are so sophisticated, well you're not. You're a very bitter bunch. I'll be removing my pictures and my website. What I had to offer far outweighs what you brought to the table. You haven't hurt my feelings a bit. I just feel sorry for you. I'll go back to smoking a fantastic cigar while doing my craft. Have a nice life.
    In a nutshell - the statement "What I had to offer far outweighs what you brought to the table." puts you in a totally different place in the community. Once you believe that, things will go downhill fast...

  6. #6

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    Ashauler either you are the type of personality that likes to try and bait people, or you seriously have a reading comprehension deficiency. I'm not going through it again because I'm not the type of personality that gets baited, and I don't have patience for the other kind of people. Re-read my sentence and for the last time, I did not direct my comment about a board, or it's members. I commented on other people's behavior (including yours) here and elsewhere. That simply means the individuals have been behaving poorly (IMO) in multiple places. It does NOT mean anything negative about WHERE they were doing it. So in short, the attempt at riling up members here on the false pretense that they have somehow been insulted is a dead-end. The only people that should take offense(and/or be ashamed IMO) are those that made the rude, insulting, personally attacking remarks about the guy on a personal level.

    I understand where you guys are coming from in your respects and feelings for the industry and it's practices. Whether or not anyone breaks your preferred methods I didn't feel some of the hurtful, rude, baiting, etc. remarks made in the various threads were something to be proud of. Whether you think you are 100% right in everything you did (speaking to those that made remarks) bear in mind that other people feel this way.

    One question I do have though is - if this guy was so terrible for whatever reasons, why was he not simply banned by the admin(s)? Does this forum simply run by the group consensus in any way they feel?

    Ashauler, I will be ignoring all your future posts, I have absolutely no interest in having any further conversations with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelaria View Post
    Ashauler either you are the type of personality that likes to try and bait people, or you seriously have a reading comprehension deficiency. I'm not going through it again because I'm not the type of personality that gets baited, and I don't have patience for the other kind of people. Re-read my sentence and for the last time, I did not direct my comment about a board, or it's members. I commented on other people's behavior (including yours) here and elsewhere. That simply means the individuals have been behaving poorly (IMO) in multiple places. It does NOT mean anything negative about WHERE they were doing it. So in short, the attempt at riling up members here on the false pretense that they have somehow been insulted is a dead-end. The only people that should take offense(and/or be ashamed IMO) are those that made the rude, insulting, personally attacking remarks about the guy on a personal level.
    I read and comprehend just fine, perhaps you are just in denial. I don't think you'll find any instances of me baiting anyone, if you can, please post them up. Confronting dishonest individuals with questionable character.....yep, I'm guilty of that. Also people that come here to take from the community as opposed to being contributing members are similarly confronted, not just by me, but rather by the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelaria View Post
    I understand where you guys are coming from in your respects and feelings for the industry and it's practices. Whether or not anyone breaks your preferred methods I didn't feel some of the hurtful, rude, baiting, etc. remarks made in the various threads were something to be proud of. Whether you think you are 100% right in everything you did (speaking to those that made remarks) bear in mind that other people feel this way.
    I know other people feel the way that I, and other members here feel. Thanks for the affirmation though.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelaria View Post
    One question I do have though is - if this guy was so terrible for whatever reasons, why was he not simply banned by the admin(s)? Does this forum simply run by the group consensus in any way they feel?
    Obviously you haven't read the forum rules, nor have you taken any time to read and figure out how this fourm functions. This failure on your part speaks volumes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelaria View Post
    Ashauler, I will be ignoring all your future posts, I have absolutely no interest in having any further conversations with you.
    Now I'm hurt. For some reason though, I don't think I'm the only one you'll have to be putting on ignore since you refuse to answer any of the questions posed to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelaria View Post
    SNIP
    One question I do have though is - if this guy was so terrible for whatever reasons, why was he not simply banned by the admin(s)? Does this forum simply run by the group consensus in any way they feel?
    SNIP
    Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner!!! Go read up and you'll find that is exactly how we do things around here.

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    What I find very interesting is the thought that your argument is supported by those that privately and quietly support your thoughts. I hate to tell you - there are substantial numbers of individuals that quietly appreciate the crew that creates an environment where they can have little fear they will be taken advantage of.

    I see where you're coming from, though - you own/run a photography business and if you pick up a few good leads because you make friends at a cigar site - hey! More power to ya! But if you're doing a "hobby" that's actually a business - or you're trying to grow your "hobby"/business through constant self-promotion - it will be a rough row to hoe. That's not what this forum is for, and you should not expect it to be that way. This site was never intended to be an info-mercial platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggiese View Post
    What I find very interesting is the thought that your argument is supported by those that privately and quietly support your thoughts. I hate to tell you - there are substantial numbers of individuals that quietly appreciate the crew that creates an environment where they can have little fear they will be taken advantage of.

    I see where you're coming from, though - you own/run a photography business and if you pick up a few good leads because you make friends at a cigar site - hey! More power to ya! But if you're doing a "hobby" that's actually a business - or you're trying to grow your "hobby"/business through constant self-promotion - it will be a rough row to hoe. That's not what this forum is for, and you should not expect it to be that way. This site was never intended to be an info-mercial platform.
    Quietly nods head.

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    Now George, I'm sure what Cholera has to bring to the table far outweighs what...shit, never mind. Somebody already used that line.

    "...all roads lead to cigars."
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    Quote Originally Posted by heftysmokes View Post
    Now George, I'm sure what Cholera has to bring to the table far outweighs what...shit, never mind. Somebody already used that line.
    LMAO. See, you'll have to ignore more than just me Cholera ole buddy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashauler View Post
    LMAO. See, you'll have to ignore more than just me Cholera ole buddy.
    When 95% of your posts direct viewers to your website, I'm not interested, and will question why you are here? Hit Count?

    You'll need to put me on ignore also.
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    Cholera, I think we've all been wondering how long you would just keep posting your review videos without having any real involvement in the community. You're probably a real likeable fella, but you need to get a better feel for what this conmmunity is about.

    So here's some advice from one newb to another - stop thinking like an entrepreneur and start thinking more like a cigar smoker that just wants to hang out and share.

    You probably haven't done enough damage to totally ruin things for yourself, so I'd think carefully before you respond any further.

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    I do appreciate Craig's post and his level-headed approach to getting the facts out there, but it seems that fairly regularly someone shows up on the boards with a new and better way of doing things. Only problem is, the new and better way is usually built to suit the new and better member.
    This place has been around for years, and with few exceptions, it has chugged allong pretty well. Maybe you should look a little deeper (read: read more) before you start badmouthing members who have been here and helped build this board. The FOG's aren't perfect, and they still need to be held accountable, but probably not by a wet behind the ears newb who doesn't know shit about shit.

    "...all roads lead to cigars."
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    "You will not change this forum. Simple as that. Accept it or move on, or you will be escorted from the premises."
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    -Ashauler
    "Rule 17: Donít turn your back on bears, men you have wronged, or the dominant turkey during mating season."
    -Dwight Schrute
    "Fuck I just like smoking. Who am I kidding?"
    -Badwhale
    "If you want to start a fuckin' hobby, start it."
    -Shelby07

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    It's really simple. If you like the web site then go thank someone that's been active here over time that help shape it. If you don't like the site and hows things work then why are you here at all?

    If you put enough of us on ignore you could have the site all to yourself.

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    Well, I tried nice and logical. For the moment, it doesn't appear to have worked . I guess that I should have named the thread differently - I can only rename the post now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Grinch View Post
    It's really simple. If you like the web site then go thank someone that's been active here over time that help shape it. If you don't like the site and hows things work then why are you here at all?

    If you put enough of us on ignore you could have the site all to yourself.

    DG
    I wanna be on the list too!

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    Well, clearly this is not a forum I care to post on - good day gentlemen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelaria View Post
    Well, clearly this is not a forum I care to post on - good day gentlemen.


    If you would have even bothered looking at the name of this forum - "Cigarsmokers.com: A cigar smokers community and discussion forum." this would have never happened. You probably had a wait period before you were allowed to post. This was put in place, in part, to allow you time to familiarize yourself with this community; who we are, what the "vibe" is here, and how you think you best fit into this community. You obviously read nothing, and only care about pandering your own cigar smoking interests, pummeling us with unsolicited video review after video review. While you do engage in conversation in other threads, did you not find it odd that no one comments on your reviews? That's being nice. You can't expect to waltz in here and expect us to openly welcome everyone the way they expect to. You are joining a community.

    And, as far as ignoring Ashauler, you might as well ignore us all. It looks like you're leaving anyway, but he's a longstanding member here, with much input and activity in the various activities of the board. You had the chance to learn about us, you probably still have the chance to participate (if you could pull your head from your ass for a moment), but instead you just attach your own agenda and force it upon us. We didn't bait you - you kept shoving yourself in front of our face, not taking the time to familiarize yourself with our community, as if you are doing us the favor.

    Stop acting like a martyr. You brought this upon yourself.


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