Muslim Democracies in the Mid-East

Oh how refreshing, middle-east democracies coming into their own. I thought a comment was appropriate following Iran's elections last Friday. Of course Iran has a more" mature "democracy, having killed off or imprisoned the "loyal opposition". Now Palestine and Iraq are following in their footsteps.
I am so proud that our country is sacrificing so much blood and treasure in pursuit of Bush's lofty dreams.
Our troop have earned our nations highest honors, gratitude, and respect. They have provided the Iraqi's the opportunity to establish a constitution, and elect a government, and establish new military and police forces. The current situation in Iraq is the Iraq's own doing. Let them have it their way.
We should remember that after our country gained a desperate and hard fought independence, tens of thousands of loyalists were burned out of their homes and run out of America into Canada and elsewhere. And that what followed under The Articles of Confederation were years of civil strife, armed uprisings and economic chaos. In desperation a new constitution was ratified which was hard won. We were then launched into a civil war less than a century later. Our democratic struggle has been neither easy or cheap, nor is it complete.
Should we expect less of Iraq.
Time to bring the troops home, they have done their job.

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Originally Posted by hoodere

Oh how refreshing, middle-east democracies coming into their own. I thought a comment was appropriate following Iran's elections last Friday. Of course Iran has a more" mature "democracy, having killed off or imprisoned the "loyal opposition".

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Now are you talking before, or after, Iran's original democracy with its lawfully elected head of state that the U.S.A. deposed and installed the puppet Shah who was malleable to the U.S. will for oil?

:smiley36: :smiley44:


-W.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Now are you talking before, or after, Iran's original democracy with its lawfully elected head of state that the U.S.A. deposed and installed the puppet Shah who was malleable to the U.S. will for oil?

:smiley36: :smiley44:


-W.

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Point well taken, we really did put the screws to-em in 1953, as we did in Guatamala about the same time, and Chile later. However I was referring to the puported "democracy" established after the Islamic Revolution.
I do wonder what Iran would be like today if the democracy they had still existed today. So much for nation making.

I heard a fomer Bush analyst say: "Iran does not want its Government but its does not want the US to interfere even more." I was surprised...at his analysis, I'd have though he'd wanted to institue the draft and liberate Iran too.

But I think Iraq would be alot better if it split itself like Yugoslavia did. It was one :smiley35:'d up place now its got more check points than the west bank but at least its making progress. Let there be a Kurdistan, and a nation for Shia and Sunni, they could form a federation of Former Iraqi states or something.

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Originally Posted by jiaguy

I heard a fomer Bush analyst say: "Iran does not want its Government but its does not want the US to interfere even more."

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Hmm perhaps an analyst that might actually understand the nuances of the region. This is actually the feelings of many Middle Eastern States. The thing that people in the west fail to percieve is that "forcing" democracy on the region will never work. They don't like people meddling in their personal business. They are also keenly aware that the U.S. is only interested in the oil and democracy makes a good excuse. They resent that, and this is a region with a long history of "an eye for an eye". The region is in many ways very young in the context of the "modern world".

Saudi Arabia was a bunch of tribes just over 100 years ago. I mean seriously, the cultures there haveuch a completely different history to the west that people over here just don't get it. There is a rich history as well as a bloody one in that region and all of it combined makes it very different to our cultures and way of thinking. They are fiercely independant. No one gave a rats ass for the region and they made it on their own, suddenly they are oil rich and everyone wants to be their friends... you think they are idiots? :smiley2:

-W.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Hmm perhaps an analyst that might actually understand the nuances of the region. This is actually the feelings of many Middle Eastern States. The thing that people in the west fail to percieve is that "forcing" democracy on the region will never work. They don't like people meddling in their personal business. They are also keenly aware that the U.S. is only interested in the oil and democracy makes a good excuse. They resent that, and this is a region with a long history of "an eye for an eye". The region is in many ways very young in the context of the "modern world".

Saudi Arabia was a bunch of tribes just over 100 years ago. I mean seriously, the cultures there haveuch a completely different history to the west that people over here just don't get it. There is a rich history as well as a bloody one in that region and all of it combined makes it very different to our cultures and way of thinking. They are fiercely independant. No one gave a rats ass for the region and they made it on their own, suddenly they are oil rich and everyone wants to be their friends... you think they are idiots? :smiley2:

-W.

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This gives us every reason to find alternative energy sources to oil. Imagine a day where oil is worth $2 a barrel for certain industrial uses, and all cars run on fuel cells, batteries, etc and we get our energy from sources other than oil. It will happen one day, it may not be in our lifetimes though. Then they can sell their oil for $2 per barrel and run their own lives. I can't wait for both to happen.

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Originally Posted by cigar no baka

This gives us every reason to find alternative energy sources to oil. Imagine a day where oil is worth $2 a barrel for certain industrial uses, and all cars run on fuel cells, batteries, etc and we get our energy from sources other than oil. It will happen one day, it may not be in our lifetimes though. Then they can sell their oil for $2 per barrel and run their own lives. I can't wait for both to happen.

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Absolutely! Not to mention fossil fuels and the pollution problems. The problem is that industry doesn't want to use those alternatives, doesn't want to invest the money, and the oil industries control a hell of a lot. Wind is a viable option, hybrid cars, solar power, all things that can help bring Winter back to Canada :smiley2:. Seriously, the planet is screwed and we are all going to be the big losers in this.

-W.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Absolutely! Not to mention fossil fuels and the pollution problems. The problem is that industry doesn't want to use those alternatives, doesn't want to invest the money, and the oil industries control a hell of a lot. Wind is a viable option, hybrid cars, solar power, all things that can help bring Winter back to Canada :smiley2:. Seriously, the planet is screwed and we are all going to be the big losers in this.

-W.

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Well, I bet some day soon (next 50 years or so), cold fusion is going to be a reality, and our energy needs will be met. Just come home, plug your fuel cell car into that big plug in the garage, and your car is ready to go every morning!! Yay, don't need gas any more, oil prices will drop into the bucket, and all those countries that have oil megabucks won't have them anymore.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Absolutely! Not to mention fossil fuels and the pollution problems. The problem is that industry doesn't want to use those alternatives, doesn't want to invest the money, and the oil industries control a hell of a lot. Wind is a viable option, hybrid cars, solar power, all things that can help bring Winter back to Canada :smiley2:. Seriously, the planet is screwed and we are all going to be the big losers in this.

-W.

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and winter back to DC! I think the middle east could be a great place to decomission the worlds nuclear bombs, and by decomission i mean detonate. Kind of like whipping the chaulk board clean and starting over.

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Originally Posted by Cabaiguan Juan

and winter back to DC! I think the middle east could be a great place to decomission the worlds nuclear bombs, and by decomission i mean detonate. Kind of like whipping the chaulk board clean and starting over.

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Same argument would be made by some about the U.S.A. I might point out.

:smiley41:

-W.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Same argument would be made by some about the U.S.A. I might point out.

:smiley41:

-W.

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yeah, i suppose. You bring up good points about Middle Eastern folks being mad at us medling with their affairs. I dont think democracy will work for everyone, but the un-ending violance in the middle east between jews and muslims and muslim/muslim is getting old. It would be nice if the news had something else to report other then the fighting thats been going on over there for centuries. I'm also a little biased towards the US.

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Originally Posted by Cabaiguan Juan

yeah, i suppose. You bring up good points about Middle Eastern folks being mad at us medling with their affairs. I dont think democracy will work for everyone, but the un-ending violance in the middle east between jews and muslims and muslim/muslim is getting old. It would be nice if the news had something else to report other then the fighting thats been going on over there for centuries. I'm also a little biased towards the US.

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Fair enough, I'm biased towards Canada, and having grown up in the Middle East as a teenager I understand the region a bit more, hence my opinions (which are LARGE and varied on this topic :smiley5: ). I'd be very sad to see it all go up in a puff of smoke from either side. The points I bring up can be paralleled with how the US felt when the British were meddling in their affairs... and look what happened there! The American Revolution :smiley2:


I think the news (especially in North America) needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Fear and death sell papers, sadly, so you don't get a clear picture. Lets not forget there are many, many, Jews in Lebanon, and Arabs in Israel. They get along for the most part. It is the radicals and the "uneducated" or "uninformed" who don't know better. Not to mention that with the "meddling" (your words :smiley2: ) all the foreign policy of the past 6 years has just resulted in a real polarisation on the issue. Look at your comment above, 6 years ago you might not have said that, but with polarisation on both ends of the spectrum you end up with a large divide and a failure to meet in the middle on issues. Not saying this is in your case, just a comment on how things keep getting so bad there.

-W.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Fair enough, I'm biased towards Canada, and having grown up in the Middle East as a teenager I understand the region a bit more, hence my opinions (which are LARGE and varied on this topic :smiley5: ). I'd be very sad to see it all go up in a puff of smoke from either side. The points I bring up can be paralleled with how the US felt when the British were meddling in their affairs... and look what happened there! The American Revolution :smiley2:


I think the news (especially in North America) needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Fear and death sell papers, sadly, so you don't get a clear picture. Lets not forget there are many, many, Jews in Lebanon, and Arabs in Israel. They get along for the most part. It is the radicals and the "uneducated" or "uninformed" who don't know better. Not to mention that with the "meddling" (your words :smiley2: ) all the foreign policy of the past 6 years has just resulted in a real polarisation on the issue. Look at your comment above, 6 years ago you might not have said that, but with polarisation on both ends of the spectrum you end up with a large divide and a failure to meet in the middle on issues. Not saying this is in your case, just a comment on how things keep getting so bad there.

-W.

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Damn spelling! (meddling) Anyway, I know the news needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but a picture is worth a thousand words. If i had grown up, or spend any substancial time abroad i probably would have a better understanding of world affairs, opinions etc. Anyway, your point about the British and the US makes sense to me, and I can understand your point of view.

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Originally Posted by Cabaiguan Juan

Damn spelling! (meddling) Anyway, I know the news needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but a picture is worth a thousand words. If i had grown up, or spend any substancial time abroad i probably would have a better understanding of world affairs, opinions etc. Anyway, your point about the British and the US makes sense to me, and I can understand your point of view.

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I think both our points of view can be summarised in "Why can't we all just get along and smoke a nice cigar!" :smiley36:

-W.

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Originally Posted by Monk

I think both our points of view can be summarised in "Why can't we all just get along and smoke a nice cigar!" :smiley36:

-W.

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yup, pretty much!:smiley16: :smiley37: :smiley16:
Jon.

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Originally Posted by cigar no baka

Well, I bet some day soon (next 50 years or so), cold fusion is going to be a reality, and our energy needs will be met. Just come home, plug your fuel cell car into that big plug in the garage, and your car is ready to go every morning!! Yay, don't need gas any more, oil prices will drop into the bucket, and all those countries that have oil megabucks won't have them anymore.

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Unfortunately i don't think cold fusion works. but hot fusion does and they are building the first reactor in France, if it works well than that is nuclear wasteless energy.

But yeah indeed the middle is keeping quiet...Winston Churchill once said something of that as I am sure you are all aware.