God Bless America....

A big earthquake with the strength of 8.1 on the Richter scale has hit
Mexico. Two million Mexicans have died and over a million are injured. The country is totally ruined and the government doesn't know where to start with providing help to rebuild.

The rest of the world is in shock.

Canada is sending troopers to help the Mexican army control the riots.
Saudi Arabia is sending oil. Other Latin American countries are sending supplies. The European community (except France) is sending food and money.



The United States, not to be outdone, is sending two million replacement Mexicans.




God Bless America

I was listening to Gordon Liddy this week. He said a recent study showed 10% of Mexico's population is now here. That is a large drain on our economy.

there is no drain on our economy. having illegal immigrants is good because they provide the cheap labor neccasary to provide a functioning economy. the standard of living is very high because those studies are based on registered persons and not on illegals who provide manual and base labor for many different industries:smiley23:

Who's down for a 52nd state?

The more the merryer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smiley31:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirkus949

there is no drain on our economy. having illegal immigrants is good because they provide the cheap labor neccasary to provide a functioning economy. the standard of living is very high because those studies are based on registered persons and not on illegals who provide manual and base labor for many different industries:smiley23:

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First of all there is no such thing as illegal immigrants. If you come to America legally you immigrate. If not you are simply illegal and have violated the law.

Second of all you do not have a clue on the financial drain. Ever hear of public health. Guess where illegals go for medical attention. Guess who pays the bill...Not them.

Ever got into a car crash with an illegal. Guess who has no insurance. Guess who pays the bill...Not them.

Out of 10 million illegals if 500,000 are in jail, a reasonible guess...probably on the low side... Guess who pays the bill for their upkeep while there...Not them.

Ever ask an illegal where his money goes after he gets his check. A bare minimum stays here. They pool their money to live. A vast majority of it leaves the country to prop up Mexico.

Take a look at just who crosses the border illegally. Mexico is flushing their own toilet..Just as Castro did.

Not to be picky sarge, but dictionary.com defines immigrant as:

Quote:

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im·mi·grant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-grnt)
n.
A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.
A plant or animal that establishes itself in an area where it previously did not exist.

adj.
Of or relating to immigrants or the act of immigrating.

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Therefore anyone who chooses to settle in America is an immigrant, whether they do it legally or not, making the term valid.


Other than that I agree with you completely.

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Originally Posted by thepyrofish

Not to be picky sarge, but dictionary.com defines immigrant as:


Therefore anyone who chooses to settle in America is an immigrant, whether they do it legally or not, making the term valid.


Other than that I agree with you completely.

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The sarge flings his outdated dictionary out the window a he lights up another cigar. :smiley37:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thepyrofish

Not to be picky sarge, but dictionary.com defines immigrant as:


Therefore anyone who chooses to settle in America is an immigrant, whether they do it legally or not, making the term valid.


Other than that I agree with you completely.

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Many are migrants. They don't plan on staying here. They just come up for the work and send the money back home to their families.

I wonder if employers would be able to up the wages of the low paying jobs and make them more palatable if they didn't have to pay the higher taxes associated with the costs of illegals.

By the way, looking up the definition of "immigrant" without including the word "illegal" gives an incorrect context.

At first glance, I thought the initial post was bias. After reading the others and reflecting on my own experience, I'm understanding the positions here.

I grew up in a largely rural and agricultural community, working on cattle and sheep ranches, a large hog farm, and spent two summers farming on a tractor. Now, we can blame a work force for not being willing to work at cheaper wages, but that wouldn't be the whole story. Those in agri-industries all over this country are under constant assault from an economy where it is increasingly more difficult to earn a living doing what has often been a multi-generational endeavor. This is reflected in various lobbying and famously in Farm Aid (john melloncamp, willie nelson, etc.) So, the farmer and rancher have to widen their profit margins where ever they can. They have been doing so in Texas ever since the area separated itself from Mexico with the Rio Grande. And at least this long throughout the southwest. To save the farm? Yeah, but damn, this is free enterprise and cheap labor equals better profit and this is the American way. Losing the farm is not always the motivator. Not only the people, but also the trend of cheap labor migrated north and to other industry, right along all the paths of free enterprise.

I also grew up working with these illegals. Some had different names for them: wetbacks, often used derrogatorily, but sometimes as a valid term of designation that implied the wage for which the person in question was willing to work; "wetback" was financial term. They called themselves mujou (pronounced moo-how'). I don't know what this word really translates to - there are several other Spanish words for deer. But I know what they meant - they had to stay hidden, in brush and shadows and quietly dissappear at first sign of la shota, their term for the Border Patrol. Crossing the border and traveling crosscountry, they lived much like the deer with which they shared the countryside. These people sometimes spent their entire working careers working for a family, becoming permanent figures in the day-to-day lives of those with whom they lived. The arguments then were similar to those now: illegals were often not financially responsible for themselves. But sometimes they were, more often then than now, I'll bet. They stole jobs from locals. They drained an area of its finances. More recently, they take up our prison and welfare space.

I don't know what the answers are. I know that having grown up here has put me in the habit of seeing these problems as ones that are familiar, a part of life, and borne of and perpetuated by a need for a convenient solution to an insatiable economy.

No reply to any specific post, just my opinion...

The borders need to be secured. We have 12 million people in this country that we have no idea who they are or what they are doing here. That's 1 in 25 people. Many are working, sure, and for the most part they will give a good honest day's work for their pay. But many are not. We are at war, not only overseas but right here at home. And securing the borders not only refers to the Mexican border, but also the Canadian border. That is, in fact, where the terrorists entered. No other country in the world allows undocumented entry as easily as we do.

Being a friendly neighbor is all well and good in peacetime. In reality, our current 4.9% unemployment level is almost nothing. So I don't think many Americans are really out of work because of migrant workers. However, I do believe that the tax burden is increased because of them. But either way, the issue in my mind goes back to keeping the bad guys out. When I had the flight school hardly a week went by when the FBI or TSA wasn't coming around looking for people who were perceived as a threat and thought to be in the area. And that was just the local area.

So, they are here. We need to be diligent not only in finding the bad guys, but keeping them from sneaking in in the first place. This isn't about mexican workers, it's about our nation's security.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

Many are migrants. They don't plan on staying here. They just come up for the work and send the money back home to their families.

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Touche

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

By the way, looking up the definition of "immigrant" without including the word "illegal" gives an incorrect context.

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I disagree. The point in question was whether the term immigrant referred to legals only or illegals as well. Looking up the term illegal immigrant would have answered nothing, as cigarsarge was contending that it wasn't a proper term at all.


:smiley31:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thepyrofish

Touche



I disagree. The point in question was whether the term immigrant referred to legals only or illegals as well. Looking up the term illegal immigrant would have answered nothing, as cigarsarge was contending that it wasn't a proper term at all.


:smiley31:

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Technically you are correct. However, our language constantly evolves, and whether or not it is in the dictionary, the term "illegal immigrant" has worked its way into our language and our culture. The two word phrase is conventionally understood to mean undocumented foreign nationals who have circumvented the required process of entering our country, and very different than just the word "immigrant."

I have to agree with Sarge on this one also, probably goes to my past experiences. In NYC and the surrounding Counties (I'm sure it is in other places also) we have "day laborers". They stand on corners and wait for contractors to pick them up for different types of manual labor. The problem is when they are not picked up for jobs. They then stand on the corners all day and drink. With the drinking comes other things : urinating, bothering the women and beer muscles. This is when "day laborers" become a nuisance to the community. So what does the community do, they complain to the local Police Dept. So the local PD then enforces quality of life issues, ex. drinking, urinating... etc. Also enforcing the issue of loitering and blocking the sidewalks and roadways (when trucks stop to pick them up).... The next thing you know, some law firm (who is looking for some free advertising), decides that we are violating the rights of these individuals and that they now represent any Mexican day laborer. After that comes the local spanish TV Station, video taping everything to make sure nobodies rights are violated. Here is another thing to take into consideration, since they are being hired illegally they have no medical coverage or Workman's Compensation Insurance. If they are hurt on the job site, and alot are because they are not properly trained in the different trades that they do, they usually are just dropped off at the local hospital.... so who do you think pays that bill.

Keep in mind that it is not only the "illegal" immigrants who are doing things illegally or immorally. It is aloso every person who hires them. They do not have to pay for Insurance, no Unions to contend with, no contract negotiations. They also do not pay most of them a fair wage.

I also agree with Shelby.... they do not put any money back into the economy.... they pool their money in order to rent apartments and send the rest home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

Technically you are correct. However, our language constantly evolves, and whether or not it is in the dictionary, the term "illegal immigrant" has worked its way into our language and our culture. The two word phrase is conventionally understood to mean undocumented foreign nationals who have circumvented the required process of entering our country, and very different than just the word "immigrant."

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I think we're agreeing without realising it. :smiley1:
I only brought up the definition of the word immigrant alone to defend the fact that illegal immigrant is a viable term.
And on friday, for the first time since my move to VA, I experienced nuisance day-workers. I'm a security technician and I often go back and forth to my car for tools/equipment/whatever during a job. I had two guys keep asking me if I wanted help, saying they work cheap, blah blah blah. They were pretty persistant. Eventually they got sick of me and left. I saw them in the alley when I finished up, I think they were tweaking.:smiley5:

The US economy does not "Need" migrant workers. Big business does. They reap the benefits of having cheap labor who they don't have to provide any benefits. Illegals have actually been suppressing wages in those jobs that "Americans simply won't do" (God, I'm sick of hearing that!).

It's not that Americans won't do them, they just won't do them for a pittance. Our economy would get along fine with illegals, we'd just have more Americans employed and paying their own way, wages would rise and so would prices but I'm willing to do that as we would save money in many other ways, ie. the COSTS of illegal immigration - healthcare,education, etc.

And I am in agreement with those that say that most illegals send a lot of money home, so they are not exactly spending all their money here.

The elite class in Mexico tell the poor that they'll be heros to their people if they come to America and send money back, and the poor slobs eat it up.

Big business, including politicians, in both Countries want to keep things just like they are.

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.

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Originally Posted by SuperChuck

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.

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It's not whining, it's taking control over our national sovereignty once again.

I could give a flying fuck less if peaches cost $2 each. That's a price I'm willing to pay. Our national sovereignty is NOT for sale.

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Originally Posted by cigar no baka

I could give a flying fuck less if peaches cost $2 each. That's a price I'm willing to pay. Our national sovereignty is NOT for sale.

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That's pretty easy to say when peaches cost 50c, less so when they're $2.

Look at the price of gasoline. It's gone up less than a dollar, yet everyone's acting like its the first sign of the Apocalypse.

Look at our "dependence on foreign oil". There are literally dozens of ways to ACTUALLY reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Renewable wind energy would dramatically reduce our dependence on foreign oil for electricity production, but it costs about 25% more, so no one will switch.

Adding an E85 option at the gas pump would reduce our reliance on foreign oil for automobiles by 75%, but it costs 20c per gallon more, so no one will carry it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperChuck

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.

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Rant on:

Good Lord! Gasoline and peaches can't be considered equal. Everything in our economy revolves around petroleum. Look around your house and see how many items you can find that haven't been manufactured or transported by a machine powered by petroleum. You don't need peaches to manufacture and transport goods, nor do you need peaches to heat your house, get to work, make a living or defend the country. We don't have a choice with oil. We certainly have one with peaches. The free enterprise system is based on supply and demand. If peaches go up to $2 each, I will stop buying them. I also have the option of putting a peach tree in my back yard or picking some up at the farmer's market. If we don't buy peaches because they are too costly, demand goes down, supply goes up, and prices come down.

You could make a case that cheap labor is adding to the problem. If cheap labor goes away, technology will produce another method to harvest crops. As long as we have cheap labor, there is no incentive to do so.

So if I complain about the price of oil, it is because it touches everything we do, have or need. It is much further reaching than simply what it costs to fill your car. We can't as a country be dependent on a vital part of our economy from a hostile part of the world. We need to look within. We need to focus on alternative energy sources, and until that technology comes about, we need to drill for and refine more oil in areas that are not controlled by OPEC. With China and India increasing the demand for oil, the price is skyrocketing. Believe it or not, there is still plenty of oil to go around. Oil can still be bought for 80 cents a gallon in many parts of the middle east.

As for illegal immigrants, the issue to me is about securing our borders, not cheap labor or anti-sematism. The United States has always welcomed immigrants entering this country legally. But we need to know who comes in, when. where and why. We are, after all, at war. And no matter what your position is on Iraq or Afghanistan, the problem of terrorism will not go away if we suddenly bring our troops home. In my opinion, it would get worse. So I would like to see our borders secured beforehand.

By the way, the cost of harvesting any crop is a very small percentage of the overall cost of producing it. Bad weather will have more of an effect on the price of produce than higher wages for harvesting it.

Comparing the consequences of gasoline prices to peach prices is totally rediculous.

Rant off

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

Good Lord! Gasoline and peaches can't be considered equal. Everything in our economy revolves around petroleum. ... If peaches go up to $2 each, I will stop buying them.

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I was using peaches as a silly example for ALL foodstuffs. If peaches go up to $2 each, you can switch to apples. However, if the price of all crops harvested by illegal workers tripled, your food bill will triple.

Quote:

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As for illegal immigrants, the issue to me is about securing our borders, not cheap labor or anti-sematism. The United States has always welcomed immigrants entering this country legally. But we need to know who comes in, when. where and why. We are, after all, at war. And no matter what your position is on Iraq or Afghanistan, the problem of terrorism will not go away if we suddenly bring our troops home. In my opinion, it would get worse. So I would like to see our borders secured beforehand.

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Um, the terrorists in question came into the country legally through Canada. I believe everyone involved (stateside) in the 9/11 attack was here on an expired student visa. They were not IN the country legally, but they arrived here legally and our own INS didn't bother to check if they left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperChuck

I was using peaches as a silly example for ALL foodstuffs. If peaches go up to $2 each, you can switch to apples. However, if the price of all crops harvested by illegal workers tripled, your food bill will triple.


Um, the terrorists in question came into the country legally through Canada. I believe everyone involved (stateside) in the 9/11 attack was here on an expired student visa. They were not IN the country legally, but they arrived here legally and our own INS didn't bother to check if they left.

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Your theory is flawed. Your supposition stated that peaches were an example for ALL foodstuffs, then you offered an alternative to peaches that wouldn't be affected. Only items harvested by those getting paid $3/hr will be affected. That is a very small percentage of our overall food bill. And as I said before, the cost of harvesting is a small part of the overall cost of goods, so the percentage for these few items will not be 300%. It would be much less. Milk, beef, poultry, wheat, legumes, etc., would not be affected at all since they are either not harvested or they are harvested using methods that don't require field laborers. Another problem with your theory is that it implies that ALL field workers are getting $3/hr and that tightening up our immigration laws would resuld in a $10/hr wage. There is no proof of this. Even if it were to be true, the overall cost to our food bill would be minimal since it would only affect a small percentage of our food purchases. Those who threaten a 300% increase in our overall food bills are spouting scare tactics that you have apparantly bought into.

And, yes, the terrorists came in legally because our borders were/are wide open. Our processes need to change, and that include ALL methods of entry into the country. Doing nothing will not help the situation. It sounds as if you understand this. So what would you suggest?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

Only items harvested by those getting paid $3/hr will be affected. That is a very small percentage of our overall food bill.

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You'd probably be surprised what percentage this is. Even the few farms up here in New England mostly hire immigrants (I don't know what percentage is legal or illegal) because they'll work for next to nothing.

Quote:

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And, yes, the terrorists came in legally because our borders were/are wide open. Our processes need to change, and that include ALL methods of entry into the country. Doing nothing will not help the situation. It sounds as if you understand this. So what would you suggest?

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There are a lot of things that can be done, but we're not concerned with actual solutions, we're concerned with big displays.

Airport security is a good example.

I have to take my shoes off at the airport because some nutjob tried to blow up a plane with a "shoe bomb". Let's review. This guy was actually turned down by al Qaeda. If he was able to detonate it, the shoe contained almost enough explosive to burn his hand. Maybe.

When I was flying a lot, they used to have 3 questions they'd askat check-in. Yes-No-No. I don't even remember the questions, those are the answers.

All checked luggage is being x-rayed, which I agree is a good thing, but can't we do that in a back room?

When I was flying out of Amsterdam one time, they did something I thought was a great idea. They basically interrogated me before letting me on the plane. They didn't actually care what the answers were, they just wanted me to slip.

But it's all about show. Taking your shoes off gives a PERCEPTION of security. Heavily armed guards give the PERCEPTION of security.

Similarly, sending thousands of troops sounds really good, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Pedro is not a terrorist. And, really, Pedro is going to come over, anyway.

"Protecting the borders" may even be hurting the fight on terror a little. As of last week, we kind of look the other way with illegal immigration. As a result, the wetbacks have been helping protect that border from suspicious people. They didn't want us to start cracking down. We'll lose that non-civilian police force now.

Those Canucks, on the other hand, they let anyone through their borders... :smiley2:

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God damn, that's a lot of words. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperChuck

You'd probably be surprised what percentage this is. Even the few farms up here in New England mostly hire immigrants (I don't know what percentage is legal or illegal) because they'll work for next to nothing.


There are a lot of things that can be done, but we're not concerned with actual solutions, we're concerned with big displays.

Airport security is a good example.

I have to take my shoes off at the airport because some nutjob tried to blow up a plane with a "shoe bomb". Let's review. This guy was actually turned down by al Qaeda. If he was able to detonate it, the shoe contained almost enough explosive to burn his hand. Maybe.

When I was flying a lot, they used to have 3 questions they'd askat check-in. Yes-No-No. I don't even remember the questions, those are the answers.

All checked luggage is being x-rayed, which I agree is a good thing, but can't we do that in a back room?

When I was flying out of Amsterdam one time, they did something I thought was a great idea. They basically interrogated me before letting me on the plane. They didn't actually care what the answers were, they just wanted me to slip.

But it's all about show. Taking your shoes off gives a PERCEPTION of security. Heavily armed guards give the PERCEPTION of security.

Similarly, sending thousands of troops sounds really good, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Pedro is not a terrorist. And, really, Pedro is going to come over, anyway.

"Protecting the borders" may even be hurting the fight on terror a little. As of last week, we kind of look the other way with illegal immigration. As a result, the wetbacks have been helping protect that border from suspicious people. They didn't want us to start cracking down. We'll lose that non-civilian police force now.

Those Canucks, on the other hand, they let anyone through their borders... :smiley2:

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God damn, that's a lot of words. :)

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Well, you started up by saying that people were complaining, I ranted a bit because it was a hot button (nothing personal, many hold your views.) We discussed some opinions and I asked you what you suggested. Instead of offering opinions on solutions, you are back to complaining about the stupidity of our efforts. So, what do you suggest? Interrogation on aircraft? With all due respect, that hardly touches on the issue you first introduced. Honestly, I have heard lots of complaining from those who want to keep the borders open, but no suggestions other than leaving things as they are or granting amnesty to those who have broken our laws. I am assuming that we agree we have a problem (if that's a wrong assumption let me know.) I am curious as to what your opinion on a solution would be. I'm not sure how beefing up airport security would affect illegals crossing either one of our borders.

By the way, there is a big difference between securing our borders and closing them. And actually, perception is a big part of achieving any goal.

Anybody else want to jump in???

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

Anybody else want to jump in???

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I'd love to, but you guys took off to the deep end and I can't swim... :smiley40: I'mma go smoke and come back to read in a bit, this is entertaining and informative.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thepyrofish

I'd love to, but you guys took off to the deep end and I can't swim... :smiley40: I'mma go smoke and come back to read in a bit, this is entertaining and informative.

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The best way to learn to swim is to jump in. I don't mind differing opinions, I welcome them. The best thing our founding fathers did was to build gridlock into our political system. Some think it's a hinderance to getting things done, but I think it's the best way to keep one group from getting too much too fast. I grew up discussing current events and politics with my family. I always had the flaws in my thinking exposed. The trick is not to get blindly committed to one side or the other. By keeping an open mind you can either educate or learn.

So, c'mon... tell us what you really think!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

Honestly, I have heard lots of complaining from those who want to keep the borders open, but no suggestions other than leaving things as they are or granting amnesty to those who have broken our laws.

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That's a nasty, nasty problem.

Part of me says "Illegal immigrants are living the American Dream". They want to come here so they can work hard and earn a "fair wage" to support their families. How different is that than when MY family came over?

I'm kind of impartial on the whole "breaking the law" thing. It can fall into that grey area of stealing bread.

But... There are a lot of people waiting to get into the country legally. What do you do about them? You really don't want a guest worker program that keeps the illegals in and keeps those seeking legal immigration out. That would penalize the people that are trying to do it the right way.

So I get caught in this little Catch-22.

Getting caught in the middle of doing what's best for others and doing what's best for you is always a major dillema because of the guilt factor. Both alternatives need to be weighed. I think if it wasn't for the fact that we were attacked on our own soil this whole thing would have stayed down in the noise, regardless of the cost associated with it. But the reality for me is that we do need to protect ourselves, and that means more restrictions to try to prevent others from hurting us.

The fact of the matter is that illegals are a tremendous drain on our economy. We do, in fact, pay a huge bill to maintain and care for them that would disappear or be substantially reduced if they paid into the system. The solution has to include having everyone pay in, and that's what the guest worker program would accomplish. Not only that, but anyone who has been working here would have to pony up penalties and taxes and declare themselves and their reason for being here. If they are unwilling to do so, they will be deported. Seems fair to me.

The current tax base is adjusted to take into account the cost associated with the 12 million or so illegals in this country. Legitimate employers currently carry the brunt of the cost, and taxes that you and I pay take up the slack. In fact, thoes who use illegals and pay them under the table are not paying anything into the system for these workers. Having guest workers pay into the system would relieve some of the burdon on employers and allow them to put that money into higher salaries.

I personally don't feel guilty about what I have. Many people do, but in reality we all pay more than our fair share. By the time you add up Federal, State city, and county tax, along with the taxes built into the cost of goods and additional excise and "sin" tax, many of us are paying over 50% of our income into the tax base. In addition. most of us contribute to various charities and organizations. Just because we have grown our economy when others haven't, we shouldn't feel guilty for not giving most of it away. God knows our government does that for us. We give enough of it back through taxes that fund foreign aid as well as supplement the poor of this country. There just isn't enough guilt to justify not securing our borders and our security. We can no longer afford to be nice guys and look the other way unless we are willing to pay with more American lives. And I strongly believe that we are at a high risk of that happening until we get this issue of knowing who is here somewhat under control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby07

The current tax base is adjusted to take into account the cost associated with the 12 million or so illegals in this country. Legitimate employers currently carry the brunt of the cost, and taxes that you and I pay take up the slack. In fact, thoes who use illegals and pay them under the table are not paying anything into the system for these workers. Having guest workers pay into the system would relieve some of the burdon on employers and allow them to put that money into higher salaries.

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Unfortunately, I think that's kind of a pipe dream.

Most transient laborer jobs are paid under the table, whether you're a Mexican or a white guy. I dont think I've ever met anyone in construction that gets taxes taken out of their paycheck, and I know fewer that actually declare the money.

Well, I'm not a good swimmer but I'll jump in with a few observations I've had while reading this....if someone sees me going under, kindly throw me a life preserver!

A few points I'd like to disagree with-

Shelby first-
I think you might be a little on the low side as far as what percent of our food supply is at least partially effected by migrant (illegals, whatever) workers. Having grown up in the Yellowstone River valley in Montana, I was in the heart of sugarbeet, wheat, cow, and (to a lesser extent) corn country. Every summer the migrant workers would come to work the beet fields or help with the irrigating, and there was always ranchers looking for fence repair, muck jobs, and other jobs the regular ranch hands couldn't get to. And these guys pass through my home country every year for 2 reasons. First, they work cheap, and most of the farms in my part of the world are barely making it hiring migrants making shit wages. Second, even if they could easily afford to pay a bunch of locals 8-10 bucks an hour to hoe weeds in the beet fields, they simply can't because there aren't enough people in the area to hire. This is a huge area with very few people. That being said, you just can't count the fruit crops in California when you're looking at your grocery bill.

And Superchuck-
I don't know who you've met in construction but before I went back to college I was a 3rd generation Ironworker, and most of the guys I worked with were pretty much family guys who owned homes, paid taxes, voted, and all that good stuff. They may have sucked down way too much beer but for the most part they were just regular guys who followed the rules like everybody else. I know there were guys who didn't pay taxes and claimed 8 dependants and all that shit but they were definitely in the minority.




I think both of you guys have some valid points and I'm not going to take a side because I don't really have any solutions to put out there. But I would like to say this...I called my grandpa tonight because he is the only person I know who has any history with immigration (he came from Austria as a baby), and the most interesting thing he told me was that most of the money his family made farming went back to the old country to help support his grandparents. Now it wasn't much and it probably would have helped the economy if it would have stayed in this country but you do what you can to support your family, and I'm sure that's what those illegals stacked 15 deep in a 2 bedroom apartment are trying to do.

And before you reply to this last statement about how my family probably came to this country through legal means and they obviously weren't here just to make some money and go home....I know it. That's why I can't easily choose a side and I think it's also why coming up with a satisfactory solution seems to be so difficult for so many people.

And I'll shut the fuck up now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heftysmokes

I don't know who you've met in construction but before I went back to college I was a 3rd generation Ironworker, and most of the guys I worked with were pretty much family guys who owned homes, paid taxes, voted, and all that good stuff. They may have sucked down way too much beer but for the most part they were just regular guys who followed the rules like everybody else. I know there were guys who didn't pay taxes and claimed 8 dependants and all that shit but they were definitely in the minority.

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Yeah, most of the guys I know doing construction jobs are young guys 18-25, no family or anything.