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I was browsing the web today and found an interesting article about a smoking ban in California. I realize that a lot of states now have passed bans, but this one I think goes way too far. Here is the article:
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7...nclick_check=1
The ban prohibits people smoking in there own condo or apartment as well as public parks and public places. When will this crap stop?
So apparently after I looked at the link above, you have to register and be a member to look at the webpage again. Anyway here is the article from another source:
BELMONT, Calif. — Officials in Belmont have given final approval to a new smoking ban that is considered to be one of the toughest in the nation.
After a late push to ease some of the restrictions, the Belmont City Council voted Tuesday to pass the anti-smoking ordinance.
Prohibitions on smoking in parks and other public places will take effect in 30 days. The ordinance’s most hotly contested elements — which ban smoking inside apartments and condominiums — won’t be enforced for another 14 months.
Officials say the ordinance was written so that smokers will only face enforcement if their neighbors complain.
People will still be able to smoke on Belmont’s streets and sidewalks as long as they are not loitering near the entrance to homes or businesses and in parking lots and designated smoking areas.
you can smoke on the street but not in your own home? I dont see how that relationship makes sense! That is why I dont live in CA.
Wow, that sucks!
Strange that CA is simultaneously the most liberal state when it comes to marijuana smoking.
I think it's a bit ridiculous that you can't smoke in your own home. However, with apartments and condominiums I can see where they're coming from. With the way all the ventilation is hooked up in most complexes it would make it easy for your neighbors to smell you making a bag of popcorn let alone smoking a big ol' stogie. So as a way of privacy and courtesy I understand where the law makers are coming from.
We have a smoking ban here in Ohio for public places as well which I actually voted for. I personally only smoke cigars every so often as a social venture with my buddies (being a college athlete it can't be good for me but you only live once right?). And I am on the same page witht those who don't want to be bothered by smoke in a restaurant while trying to enjoy a meal with their family. It is harmful and those who don't wish to engage in the environment shouldn't need to. So I don't think smoking bans are necessarily bad. Regardless I'm starting to stray from the topic.
It is interesting that California always seems to have such a laid back attitude about most things and lets most acts slide and now they enact this one. Oh well, that's why I don't live out there (on top of it being expensive as hell!).
My problem with your stance is that this should not be government enforced issue. Liberty requires that our government do what it must and no more than that. In this case, they are using the heavy hand of government to get involved where they should not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey-OH
I don't know about where you live, but the majority of restaurants where I live have no smoking policies in spite of there being not law against smoking in restaurants. Private businesses should be able to make these choices for themselves, and they are doing so. Just wait until the government pushes its heavy hand into your affairs, demonizes you, and ostracizes you, and your stance my indeed change.
This country used to be about liberty and individual freedoms. Now we give away our liberty for safety and "the common" good. That's a slippery slope, from the evidence history has to present.
I do agree with what you are saying. Many things are being taken away from us in this country due to our government sticking its hands in where they are not needed. Government laws are being passed without giving us, the people, the opportunity to say what we believe to be right and rather the government is telling us what is right. Not how things should be at all. We've definately grown away from what this country set out to do and give people their individual liberties.Quote:
Originally Posted by cigar no baka
However, this is where the smoking ban laws become seperate from providing individual choice. It may seem hypocritical to talk about this on a smokers forum but we as the educated individuals I believe all of you to be realize that smoking does no good for our health. Regardless, we have made the individual choice to engage in this practice because it is something we enjoy and have made apart of our social lives. This is one of those individual freedoms that we have been granted and have chosen to pursue. We also all know that our smoking affects those around us through secondhand smoke. Studies have proven that this is just as unhealthy as physically smoking a tobacco product yourself. So then those who individually do not choose to partake in the act of smoking are effected. I can relate to those people. I personally cannot stand the smell of cigarette smoke, which are obviously the most common form of tobacco product smoked in public areas. So I took my freedom, and right to vote, that while I was enjoying a meal I would not have to be subject to that kind of atmosphere.
Now I think that certain establishments (such as bars or clubs) should allow smoking. My reasoning behind that is that this is the kind of atmosphere that is created just by labeling a place as a "bar." It's something that would be expected. And those who wish to be excluded from smoking can easily do so by simply not going to those places.
So after writing a ton of words (sorry for being so lengthy) I believe that as long as these types of issues are voted on by the people that they are directly effecting then it is tolerable. Not to say that everyone is going to agree (this will never happen, and it never has, even since the insemination of our country) but people can learn to deal with it. This is what our country is based off of, being able to allow the people to create how they believe things should be run.
Baka,
Thanks for your reply as well. It's nice to be able to have mature conversations with people you share a common interest with. So just letting you know that I appreciate and respect your opinion as well as your cross examination of mine.
The free market.....and individual choice of which businesses to patronize would accomplish the same end result without the need for government regulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey-OH
I for one do not need the government to protect me from my OWN CHOICES, i.e. if I choose to eat in a restaraunt that allows smoking then I have chosen to deal with the consequences and take personal responsibility for its affects on me.
The thing is with Ohio (or atleast my personal experience) is that I rarely, if ever, saw an establishment that specifically said they were a non-smoking one. If more businesses chose to do this it would be great, but in all reality many of them wouldn't because it usually deters business and really button-holes them as to the amount of potential customers they can have.
Like Baka said it really is a slippery slope and just one of those things that isn't going to have any clear cut agreement on it. But as for the topic, California of all places having these laws is something I don't get.
Such is the functioning of a free market........little demand = little supply. :smiley2: Here in backward Wichita, Kansas, you can find plenty of non-smoking establishments, be they bars/nightclubs or restaraunts. We have smoking bans in government buildings, hospitals, etc......but not private establishments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey-OH
No one is forced to go out to restaraunts or bars, nor do I believe it is an infringement on anybodies rights, at least I don't recall having a right to eat out and drink wherever I want and require the proprietor to make the setting suitable for me.
I'm not tryin to be an ass, just participating in the discussion.
Yeah I know your fine. I don't know that I have much else to say on the matter. We all pretty much covered everything. These are the types of conversations that require lighting up your favorite stick and kicking back and discussing it with your buddies. Which is exactly why I came to this forum to be able to talk with you guys. So...........good talk? Haha :smiley37:
Interesting discussion. I am all for less regulation and more common sense. Common courtesy goes along with that.
Smoking at home:
I saw a related article on these California ordinances a while ago. It is interesting to note that the new code would be enforced based on “complaints.” Hmmmm… So, if no one says anything, you can still smoke in your own apartment. I bet that will last all of 10 minutes. My point in highlighting this is twofold. Not only have they created a code of behavior governing private citizens’ rights to participate in legal activities in their own homes, but they have put the burden of policing this infraction on the neighbors of the perpetrator! (Innocence is presumed, of course… until the cigar humidor is discovered… and taken into evidence. I’m sure this would make a great “COPS” episode.)
Smoking in "Public":
On a related note, the State of Florida and most municipalities implemented rules years ago to curtail public smoking in government buildings, public places, and most restaurants (even those with a bar). I recall the publicity and the predictions that many establishments would lose their customers and be forced to close up shop. Surprisingly, years later, these businesses are still thriving and in many cases expanding. An excellent example is the attendance at the Seminole casinos. As I understand the situation, when they permitted smoking inside the casino, the smoke was as thick as fog. Consequently, very few non-smokers would go. When smoking indoors was “banned”, the attendance went up along with their revenues. I’m just saying…
None of this is a problem for me personally. I mean, hey, I don’t live in Cali. And I only smoke cigars. And the government is really just looking out of me, aren’t they? :smiley15:
*sigh*
Mikey,
There is way to tell in any way, shape or form if second hand smoke kills anyone. The FDA had to make an educated guess, since there was no way to point to deaths and say 'second hand smoke caused these deaths'. So you are wrong that it is a fact that second hand smoke kills. What I will admit is that it is a pollutant, but far less of a harmful pollutant than industrial pollutants that we all agree to just live with.
So if we can agree to live with industrial pollutants that are proven to harm and kill people, why can't we live with a pollutant that cannot be proven to have killed anyone (with second hand smoke that is). Yes, smoking can kill the smoker, but there the FDA itself admits it cannot tie deaths directly to second hand smoke as there is no way to measure exposure, direct harm, etc.
The idea that second hand smoke is proven to kill and harm is more propoganda than fact. A result of the rampant hysteria of our times that there are things that are killing us and the government needs to make us safer. I think I'm going to pull a Colbert here and coin a word. Safiness. The government needs to ban smoking to improve our safiness.
I love it!! Safiness :smiley20: This is a good discussion. Thanks CNB for pointing out the inability of anyone to prove/disprove the relationship of second hand smoke and health. As you state, the exposure level, etc....cannot be accurately measured, at least not in any practical way that would legitimately reflect that which occurs in the environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by cigar no baka
Quite frankly, I think the health issues are secondary to the real issue here, which is one of rights. Those of the business owner to run his establishment in any way they wish, and those of people who believe that every business should provide the type of environment that they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cigar no baka
I could be wrong, I'll admit that, but this site provides some good things to think about.
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422
Some notable things from this:
- New research indicates that private research conducted by cigarette company Philip Morris in the 1980s showed that secondhand smoke was highly toxic, yet the company suppressed the finding during the next two decades.
- Secondhand smoke has been classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as a known cause of cancer in humans (Group A carcinogen).
- Secondhand smoke causes approximately 3,400 lung cancer deaths and 46,000 heart disease deaths in adult nonsmokers in the United States each year.
- Nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke at work are at increased risk for adverse health effects. Levels of ETS in restaurants and bars were found to be 2 to 5 times higher than in residences with smokers and 2 to 6 times higher than in office workplaces.
So maybe these facts are propaganda or are made up. I'd tend to trust most of them done by the EPA and the private investigation done by Philip Morris. However, it seems that unfortunately a lot of things in this world can't be looked at as concrete fact.
But, like ashauler said we are talking about the freedoms here, so I kind of got the conversation off course.
Even more off topic Colbert Report is an amazing show. I'd definately vote for him if he ran.
Yes, second hand smoke is listed as a class A carcinogen by the EPA, as well as the IARC, right along with Solar Radiation........will we be seeing sun-screen police soon? :smiley5:
But you are correct.......its really about rights......yours and mine and everyone elses'. You have as much right to choose a non-smoking establishment to patronize as I do to choose a smoking establishment......or at least I still have that right where I live, some of us don't any longer.
okay let's solve this "is second hand smoke bad" thing. Go out, get yourself a mouse. When you enjoy a cigar put a mouse in a sealed container. Blow your smoke into the container. See what mouse eventually dies from. My dog hates smoke. Maybe he is smarter then I am. However I believe in a free market dictating if a private business is smoking or not.
I believe PETA would be all up in our ass after that one! hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by dauker
Creative idea though.
This would be lack of oxygen!! Your proposed experiment is pretty much how its done now. And like I said in an earlier post does not accurately reflect the reality of second hand smoke exposure. You could kill the mouse if you pumped nitrogen into the box in a quantity that reduced the oxygen content sufficiently.....and everybody breathes nitrogen with every breath we take. Debating the health effects is really pointless anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by dauker
The last sentence of your post is the crux of the matter.
Those approximate numbers you list ofr deaths is a best guess. They cannot determine how hazardous second hand smoke is, so they make up numbers to support their propoganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey-OH
One of the friends I've made at the smoke shop is a ER doctor. He points out that carcinogens in a restaurant that grills food is more hazardous than most pollutants and is most likely contributint to disease and death. So in order to improve our safiness, are we going to start banning grilling at restaurants to protect employees? How far will we, the free people of the USA, allow the government to go to protect our safiness?
Dude…Let me tell you…This whole thing is like kissing your grandma. Remember when our moms and dads would make us do that when we were kids? “Go kiss your grandma honey!” Man I hated doing that! You’re really uncomfortable doing it and that smell of lotion stays on your face for what seems like hours!!! YUCK!!! But the more you did it the easier it got.Quote:
Originally Posted by cigar no baka
I live in the “Communist” State of Cali. Not to mention in the bay area, were all these STUPID ASS laws are written. The city of SF will say it is perfectly acceptable for a bum to use your porch as a bathroom but you better not smoke in the public park with-in 50 feet of a playground or you will be arrested! Sometimes I hate this F-ING state!
Anyway, they should let us smoke our sticks in peace!!! “GO KISS YOUR GRANDMA CALI” Let her smoke where she wants!!!
(Stepping off of my soap box):smiley14:
hahahaha. I feel for ya man. There's always space here in Ohio if you get sick of it. We'll just stick you in the hills somewhere and you can live in peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maduro Man
Well I heard of some other "bans" around my area. I thought it was interesting that some hospitals around my house are banning smoking completely in hospitals, outside hospitals, in hospital parking lots and even if you smoke in your car at the hospital. Now don’t get me wrong I understand not allowing smoking in hospitals and in close proximity to the hospital. But in the parking lot? And in Your own car? I’m pretty sure that your car would probably put off far worst emissions then a single cigar or cigarette smoked inside your car or in the parking lot.