TWCigars

I was sent this e-mail:

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KayakinBoy,

TWCIGARS has sent you this email from http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php.

I've contacted the moderators on CigarPass as well as ClubStogie in regards to your posts.. I don't know what your problem is, but obviously you need professional help..
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Please note that Cigar Pass Forums has no control over the
contents of this message.
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Regards,
The Cigar Pass Forums team.
http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/index.php

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I replied:

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Well, I tell ya what, e-mailing me and saying I need professional help won't help you. You rip off people who don't know any better. 30 for an opus?! You post and new people spend there money thinking they are getting a deal. As for this e-mail, I plan on e-mailing it to the admins of CP and CS. E-mailing there members and saying they need help, is out of line.

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He replied:

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info@tobaccoworldcigars.com
to me
More options 3:35 pm (0 minutes ago)
I am not getting into a battle with you... Unless you ordered from us previously and got bad service you can post all you want.. But you haven't..

What we decide to sell the cigars for is our decision. If you can get them for less, well god bless you... I'm sorry you don't like our price on OPUS but we also carry over 700 cigars that our pricing is fair on but you wouldn' t know that because you're only the authority on Opus.. If you continue to hijack threads we will continue to report you to the moderators.. It's that simple...

Our pricing was explained when you first contacted us.. So move on with your life and have a good day...

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And I e-mailed him back:

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Report me... I haven't done anything wrong. as for your business ethics, it's a joke. if this is the way you talk to the public, you need a new job.

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And apparently he posted on ClubStogie and I didn't know it until today:
This Topic

If you want to buy from these people it's fine, but personally I think he's unprofessional and rude. TWCigars, I guess I'll be waiting for you to report me to Hex next.

For the life of me, I just don't understand why you have focused on this one retailer and are harassing every post they make on any board and following them from board to board trying to hammer them continually...on some cigars their prices are high...on some they are not...they are a B&M cigar store that I have dealt with and their store and customer service are great...why don't you just move on and leave them and their posts alone...if you had bought from them and felt you had been cheated that would have been one thing, but it's not...you're not even a customer of theirs...Maarit and Kris will work with you when they can...and yes, their prices are high for Opus X...they're not a Fuente licensed Opus X dealer so they have to get their supply elsewhere and to sell and make any profit the prices have to be higher than MSRP...and I think what is frustrating Maarit is that every time she posts what is to TW a special offering, off their regular prices, she gets hammered, mostly by you, that she's gouging...the plain and simple fact is if you don't like their prices then don't buy from them, but don't harass them either...they also are members of all the boards and until the board admins say they can't post here what difference does it make to you as to what prices they offer...and most of us are smart enough to figure that out on our own without a self-appointed guardian following them from board to board...do I buy from them? Yeah, I do, because they have stuff I can't buy elsewhere and sometimes I'm willing to pay a little more for convenience and having a nice B&M to go to and to hang out at...and if I think their prices are too high on an item then I won't buy it from them...just as a btw, their prices on most of their items are actually much better than many of the other B&M's in Broward County...but then I also buy at Cbid and Cigar Auctioneer...so it all sorta evens out in the wash...and lest you forget, KB, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

PS - Seems to me that I got in trouble for cross-posting threads from other boards and dragging business from one board to the next, so why are you doing it? Furthermore, it's not the first time you've done this...why don't you be a good guy and just leave them alone? Don't buy from them...the rest of us can make up our minds on our own...

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Originally Posted by TWCigars

I've contacted the moderators on CigarPass as well as ClubStogie in regards to your posts.. I don't know what your problem is, but obviously you need professional help..

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Why did you contact the moderators? Did you try to resolve the issue with KB first? With the evidence that's been presented to me, I fail to see this.

Obviously he needs professional help? You really need to THINK before you post here TWCigars. That comment was way out of line and unprofessional ESPECIALLY since you're a business. I don't care how wrong you think a customer OR non-customer is, you don't make remarks like that. Any repudible business that puts customer focus 'first' would know better than to say something like this.

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Originally Posted by TWCigars

..."Unless you ordered from us previously and got bad service you can post all you want.. But you haven't.."

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This statement is completely IRRELEVANT to what KB's argument was all along. He saw that you were overcharging on Opus X cigars and is looking out for the community's best interests. There are definitely un-informed people that visit these boards and he's simply making them informed. This is a PUBLIC forum and people like KB are entitled to respond to your posts (in a logical and reasonable manner). In my opinion, you handled his factual feedback very poorly.

This isn't about your 'service' or 'previously ordering' from you at all (as you've stated in your quote).

I will let the community see and decide for themselves that KB had every right to make his post:

TW's Opus X Prices

http://www.tobaccoworldcigars.com/ci...ente_opusx.htm

Compiled List of Retail Prices

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...howtopic=14037

Heck, KB was so adament and unhappy with your gouging prices he even posted this:

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Originally Posted by Kayakinboy

Before anyone buys from him LET ME KNOW! I'd rather sell out of my stash for a fair price then let you guys get ripped.

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Why are you attacking KB specifically?

We all called you out: http://www.cigarsmokers.com/t2452-ta...y-blowout.html

Not only were you gouging on Opus X prices, but you were misleading people they were actually getting a deal on Perdomo cigars. After we call you out, we get no response from you either.

You've proven yourself:

1) A price gouger on Opus X cigars and you handled the constructive and FACTUAL feedback from KB very poorly.

2) To create misleading advertisements (perdomo specifically) stating 'blowout prices,' when in reality they aren't. Don't believe me? Several people called you out on this.

3) Unprofessional behavior acting under your business telling people they need 'professional help.'

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After witnessing all of this, I'm amazed you stay in business.

Godfather, they're objecting because KB is following them from board to board and hammering them every time they make a post...and he's not even a customer of theirs and hasn't the vaguest idea who they are...if he had a legitimate complaint or had been cheated by them it's one thing, but he seems to be going out of his way to post in their wake every time they make an offering...most of us can figure out what prices are good and what prices are not, and while I appreciate KB's concerns, posting once or twice that their prices seem a a bit high is one thing but harassing every post they make is another...

From what I've seen, Maarit does have a way of STRONGLY expressing her opinion. I agree with Neuromancer that we should each make up our own minds. I also agree with Godfather that if you're in the customer service business (like TWCigars), it's best to tone down your comments - especially things like "you need professional help".

As far as the cross board thing - much of what we do on these boards is shared back and forth. And everyone should evaluate the information for themselves. Based upon what I've seen on this and other boards, I'd be hard pressed to do business with TWCigars. Mainly because of my concerns about their customer service. I've never purchased from them, but I've seen enough to make we leary (and it's not just KB's posts that have led me to that belief). They may be great people, but they've not won me over...

Maarit - if you're concerned about your image - please think about how you treat EVERYONE you come in contact with. You may not win them over as a customer - but you certainly don't want them infecting the places you advertise at either. You might consider dealing with KB on a one to one basis - with kindness and compassion - even though you don't agree with his message. Your choice....

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Originally Posted by ggiese

I agree with Neuromancer that we should each make up our own minds.

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Definitely and one thing I learned from these cigar forums is to "look out for each other." I appreciate KB did this, and from there it's up to us decide on what we want to do about it. He's entitled to respond to their posts (TWCigars did in fact make this incident public) as long as his points are valid.

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Originally Posted by ggiese

As far as the cross board thing - much of what we do on these boards is shared back and forth.

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Definitely. When I joined in August, I noticed Hugh Jorgan throwing us information that was going on other boards. I appreciated it because I like to have these things brought to my attention.

Currently, TonyDogs is a classic case of this example of 'cross board' communication. I had no idea who he was, but many of you informed those of us who were un-informed about him.

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Originally Posted by ggiese

Based upon what I've seen on this and other boards, I'd be hard pressed to do business with TWCigars. They may be great people, but they've not won me over...

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First impressions are everything. This is the first I've heard of these people, and with what I've seen, I'm not impressed at all. You may have the best prices around, but if you don't know how to treat people in a respectful and professional manner, you won't get my business.

This is why I'm mainly upset; the way they're handling this whole situation. Very unprofessional.

If you didn't like KB making posts about Opus X gouging, then why not at least try to justify why your prices are so high? That's all you really needed to do in the first place, politely said they were entitled to look elsewhere, and it would have been a closed matter. Until then, you will be considered a gouger with no reasonable justification for doing it IMO.

Nero, I offered you an apology on CP. If I offended you I'm sorry. You'll figure out soon why we call out the "rip-off dealers". :smiley2:

Gramps and Godfather, I agree fully with everything.

TW if you had e-mailed me asking "Why?" instead of telling the admin I've been a bad kid, then this would all be different. :smiley2:

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Originally Posted by Kayakinboy

Nero, I offered you an apology on CP. If I offended you I'm sorry. You'll figure out soon why we call out the "rip-off dealers". :smiley2:

Gramps and Godfather, I agree fully with everything.

TW if you had e-mailed me asking "Why?" instead of telling the admin I've been a bad kid, then this would all be different. :smiley2:

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KB, no apology is necessary as you didn't offend me...I don't have a problem with you personally, I just tried to offer a different point of view having had personal expeience with the retailer in question...they have a tremendous inventory, and a great store with an incredible club room...also great customer service (usually...lol...other than the mix-up with you, and even you admitted they did email you explaining their prices before becoming frustrated with you in every thread of theirs that you posted in)...if they were consistantly a "rip-off dealer" I would back you to the hilt, however, their prices are good on a lot of items...they sell Opus X for more than MSRP because they are not a Fuente licensed Opus X dealer and have to buy their stock elsewhere and charge more for that specific item rather than turn away a customer, as part of doing business...we can choose to buy it from them or not...but by going from site to site shadow-posting behind them proclaiming them to be "gougers'" of everything they sell wasn't quite kosher and you know it...I know you are more intelligent than that and it would seem to me that at this point that all the parties that are getting involved just need to put their guns back in their holsters...a shoot-out over this doesn't help anyone or any board...and as far as their complaints to the board admins, c'mon, you know they're not on here every day in the thick of it with an understanding of the nuances of the boards...they're just a retailer that makes occasional posts like a lot of other retailers, some good, some bad...so I can understand why they complained, but then I also know that was totally futile, as well as you do, as it meant absolutely nothing...

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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

Godfather, they're objecting because KB is following them from board to board and hammering them every time they make a post.

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So what if he's following them? He's looking out for people's best interests that they are IN FACT gouging. KB was even gracious to offer an alternative to sell some of his Opus X stash. It's a PUBLIC forum Neuro, and KB has a right to respond. He did nothing wrong by stating a FACTUAL claim.

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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

he's not even a customer of theirs and hasn't the vaguest idea who they are.

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What on EARTH does this have to do with KB's original claim? Who cares if he's a customer of theirs, that is completely irrelevant and why does he need an idea of who they are? :smiley36:

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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

but he seems to be going out of his way to post in their wake every time they make an offering.

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The only thing he was informing people about was their Opus X gouging. nhcigarfan also caught TWCigars making a misleading advertisement about Perdomo cigars. They weren't even a 'blowout deal' as TWCigars had stated.

They had several chances to respond (TWCigars), ignored KB, posted more questionable advertisements, and when they did finally respond AFTER SEVERAL DAYS, they did it very unprofessionally.

You're looking at this from the WRONG perspective Neuro and you should really stay out of this. All WE know TWCigars as is someone who posts advertisements on this forum, and they refuse to respond to anything we post when we've called them out. Doesn't look very good coming from our standpoint.

They started digging this mess when they didn't bother responding to KB's initial posts about the Opus X gouging. All they had to say was something to the extent of: "We're not an authorized Fuente Dealer, we pay quite a bit more than authorized retailers, and have to recover our costs accordingly. If you feel like our prices are too high, then you are more than welcome to shop elsewhere."

Instead they respond with an unprofessional and snotty answer telling KB he needs 'professional help,' they didn't try to resolve the matter with KB, bypassed him and went crying directly to the moderator.

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Neuro you simply amaze me from the following dramatic and immature posts I've seen you make in the past:

CoventryCat was trying to have a conversation with a member, and you throw in this immature b.s.:

- http://www.cigarsmokers.com/showpost...2&postcount=13

Or let's not forget the immature scene you made on CP:

- http://www.cigarsmokers.com/t2026-neuromancer.html

Grow up man and stop putting your nose where it doesn't belong. I can't believe I'm giving advice to someone who is old enough to be my grandpa... :smiley36: :smiley36:

Oh and if you won't listen to me, listen to your buddies on CP that all seem to love you after spewing your mouth off about KB regarding TWCigars... :smiley36: :smiley36:

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Originally Posted by godfather

You're looking at this from the WRONG perspective Neuro and you should really stay out of this. All WE know TWCigars as is someone who posts advertisements on this forum, and they refuse to respond to anything we post when we've called them out. Doesn't look very good coming from our standpoint....Grow up man and stop putting your nose where it doesn't belong. I can't believe I'm giving advice to someone who is old enough to be my grandpa... :smiley36: :smiley36:

Oh and if you won't listen to me, listen to your buddies on CP that all seem to love you after spewing your mouth off about KB regarding TWCigars... :smiley36: :smiley36:

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Oh, now I understand...as long as the perspective matches your perspective it's the only correct perspective...how could I have been so mistaken about that? Last I looked, America was a democracy that allowed freedom of speech to all...I have no beef with you Godfather, nor do I want one...I also have no beef with KB and he knows it...he posted something about TW and I disagreed, having had personal contact with them...I could say the same about the sticking your nose in thing, but if the shoe fits, wear it...and, as far as any other things that went on here or at other boards regarding me and other issues, they're hardly relevant to the issue which was originally a pro and con about TW, as I heeded CC's advice about my side comments...and it makes me wonder why you are trying to turn this into a personal attack on me, by filling up your posts with links to other issues and other problems that have nothing to do with this other than to try and incite flames...you want me to come around to your way of thinking, then convince me by rational argument, and not personal attacks...personal attacks don't gain you any converts...but then again, perhaps it's you who needs to grow up and try and talk to someone like an adult, and not throw mud and stones for no reason other than to jump in with the schoolyard pack, who you see bullying someone and you figure it will make your life feel better to add to it, because someone else is being harassed other than you, and it makes you feel so good that you're not the target today...don't try and turn this into something other than what it was originally...KB has communicated with me in the past, and I with him, and as far as I know, we are good...as I said, I have no beef with him..I just disagreed with his opinion and stated mine...and you can agree with either position or not, or formulate one of your own...everyone will judge TW by how they see the issue and what they themselves learn about it...to be honest I doubt that anything you or I say about it is gonna matter a hill of beans to anyone who has already made up their mind one way or another, so why don't you just let it go too...I'm not TonyDogs, and I'm not gonna mix it up with everyone about this...everyone is entitled to their opinion...there's far more deserving subjects for your ire...

As far as the Opus goes I have searched quite a lot and haven't found an online site that offers it in any size for less than $25 so attacking one particular dealer for selling it at that price just isn't cool however if they were jackasses to you when you let members know they were overcharging then I understand.

I was recently in Hawaii and thought hey I'll check out some cigar shops and see what they got and I find they are selling the Opus for $25 bucks and up as well, knowing from previous posts that the msrp is between 7 and 15 depending on the size I knew not to buy it. The thing is though that I don't live in an area where I can readily go out to a shop and find it for msrp so my supplier choice is extremely limited.

I asked members once who were talking about the overpricing that if they could get it so cheap maybe they should hook us up with a connection the response was that an opus connection is held a very tight secret and only one guy offered up some info.
http://cigarsmokers.com/showthread.php?t=2302&page=2

I guess what I'm saying is everyone has got to look at it as supply and demand. I have where i live a limited supply so I have to decide whether I demand the opus enough to pay $25 dollars and up. So good show posting the msrp of the cigars, good show offering your own smokes so people don't pay too much :smiley20: . Just my thoughts no attacks on anyone here cause we all have our points of view. I just think we need to remeber that before we start getting mad at eachother for differing opinions.

Godfather you need to sit back relax and have yourself a good smoke brother. You're a damn cool guy but there's no need to let KB fight his own battles if he has no beef with neuro niether should you. We throw around the term BOTL a lot around here and brothers back eachother but a true brother also allows his bro to fight. If KB is arguing and is in the right but still losing then by all means step in and save his ass but if I was fighting and winning and someone stepped in I personally would be insulted. Props for standing up for a friend but let the man deal with his own stuff, from the things I've seen he is more than able. As some 80's band once said "Relax" :smiley36: :smiley37:

No regular line Opus is worth what they are asking. I will not pay more than MSRP plus tax for them. I suspect they are being gouged and the are passing it down the line. I wonder what their mark up is.

The rest of their cigars seem to be priced fairly. Most folks on cigar boards are educated enough to make their own decisions on cigar purchases. If you want to buy at these prices go ahead. No skin off my nose.

Neuro, we're going around in circles and I'm going to explain this one more time.

Bottom line:

- The only thing I knew about this vendor was by the posts they made on this board.
- They were called out about this issue on 10/06/05 on cigarsmokers and never responded publically.
- They were also called out on another issue with the Perdomo deal and never responded.

- Now by the posts they were making and failing to communicate with us, that sets a BAD impression of them in my mind. You may know them in a DIFFERENT light, but that's not the way some of the rest of us saw them INITIALLY. This is why I think you had no grounds for jumping into this matter in the first place.


Let's see who else agrees:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=239651
http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=239689


- What I didn't LIKE about this vendor is their lack of communication. If you create a public post and people have something to say about it, at least have the deccency to reply...they failed to do so.

- When they did post, it was very unprofessional and there's no reason to tell KB he needed 'professional help.'

This isn't about the PRICES of the Opus X cigars. I will say it again, this is NOT about the prices of the Opus X cigars.

It was mainly about their lack of communication and how I witnessed the way they handled the situation in the public eye .

If they just would have said this all along after KB called them out the first time on gouging:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=239858

Not even really sure about their response, because the mail headers aren't right :smiley36: :

----- Original Message -----
From: J Crowder
To: info@tobaccoworldcigars.com
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: TobaccoWorldCigars.com - Opus X & Padron 40th Anniversary

From the way they state it, KB is sending them the e-mail???


That's all I would have needed to hear and I would have understood where TWCigars was coming from. If it was shown this way v.s. the

"Don't listen to KB (posted before their explanation)": http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=238768

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If you still don't get why I'm upset, then let it die. There's a much bigger picture here and you're failing to see it.

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Originally Posted by prophetic_joe

there's no need to let KB fight his own battles if he has no beef with neuro niether should you.

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Neuro is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong. See my above post.

He fails to realize that we saw this vendor in a different light than he did from the get go. The only way I know this vendor is by the posts she's made on cigarsmokers (and I was actively following them before this whole incident occured), and frankly I'm not impressed with them to say the least. I was one of the people who called them out in a post and got no response. Again, see above post.

Let's remember first impressions and how important they are. They definitely failed in that department ...

Do you want my definition of a good vendor? Check out cigar1993's posts.

1) When he posts advertisements and people respond to them, he responds back. It shows he has good communication and truly wants our business.

2) Not only does he post advertisements, but he's contributed to this board.

3) He also has asked for feedback on what other types of items we'd like to see on his website. I chimed in, and two days later he personally e-mailed the items he added based on my feedback.

Overall, TW should take a lesson from this guy. Don't forget, we're the customer and they NEED our business to stay a float. I'm glad they get it, obviously TWCigars doesn't... :smiley36: :smiley36:

As some 80's band once said "Relax" :smiley36: :smiley37:[/QUOTE]


That band would be "Frankie Goes To Hollywood". :smiley37:

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Originally Posted by cigarsarge

That band would be "Frankie Goes To Hollywood". :smiley37:

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And there they are ...

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Originally Posted by prophetic_joe

As far as the Opus goes I have searched quite a lot and haven't found an online site that offers it in any size for less than $25 so attacking one particular dealer for selling it at that price just isn't cool however if they were jackasses to you when you let members know they were overcharging then I understand.

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Start reading here:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=240203

(too lazy to retype :) )

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Originally Posted by moki

Start reading here:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=240203

(too lazy to retype :) )

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Anyone got a pool cue??? :smiley36:

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Originally Posted by moki

Start reading here:

http://www.cigarpass.com/forums/inde...dpost&p=240203

(too lazy to retype :) )

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Ah being jackasses then. My response stands. jackasses so I understand kick some ass KB.

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Originally Posted by prophetic_joe

Ah being jackasses then. My response stands. jackasses so I understand kick some ass KB.

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Kick Ass and smokin' DCMs... and I'm all out of DCMs... :smiley34: :smiley36: :smiley37: