Conspiracy theorist friend

**Kenyth** · 09-16-2009, 07:15 AM

I recently got reaquainted with someone I knew back in the day. It's disheartening really. He was always quite intelligent, but it looks like he never got past the "party" stage of life. It looks like he fettered away his talents on marijuana.

Anyway, I could get past all that. It's his business how he runs his life. Problem is, he's a huge conspiracy theorist. It's what he lives and breathes. Some of it has led to positive things. He learned to make a diesel run on used cooking oil, invests in precious metals, and doesn't live in debt. On the other hand, all he likes to talk about are tyranny and the new world order. There's just not much in common anymore. Mind you, I'm not naive. I don't believe a lot of what goes on in the government is based on what's best for the common man, but neither do I believe it's a huge organized conspiracy to take over the world. Most things can be traced to human nature and various people and groups protecting their interests.

I just find it hard to talk a lot with him. Years ago, my brother was all about black helicopters too, but he eventually got over it. I don't want to insult him, but I feel like I'm being recruited sometimes. Anyone lose a friend or family member to conspiracy mania?

**BigMacFU** · 09-16-2009, 07:44 AM

No, but my wife tells me all the time I'm going to be the crazy old man on the porch with a shotgun who yells at even the mailman

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I've seen what other countries look like that continue to increase the size of their government (even efficient ones like Nazi Germany) and it scares the hell out of me.

But, I've also learned from history that man generally has a chance of making it through, though with more advanced technologies and powerful medicines, that chance may continue to shrink. Either way, yeah, I'll be that guy with the shotgun yelling, "You don't want me to smoke a cigar, then suck buckshot!"

Edit to add: it's funny that you should post this now, I did have a student yesterday who told me he had a professor at the school he transferred from show a "9/11 truthers" documentary in class and from the sound of it, it was to convince the class that this was a viable viewpoint. Thank goodness it's a Critical Thinking class I'm teaching because I was able to quickly pick apart any point made for him while demonstrating the techniques we're learning in class. Seriously, though, crazy stuff like that gets taught in colleges and universities all the time.

**nhcigarfan** · 09-16-2009, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by BigMacFU

No, but my wife tells me all the time I'm going to be the crazy old man on the porch with a shotgun who yells at even the mailman

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I've seen what other countries look like that continue to increase the size of their government (even efficient ones like Nazi Germany) and it scares the hell out of me.

But, I've also learned from history that man generally has a chance of making it through, though with more advanced technologies and powerful medicines, that chance may continue to shrink. Either way, yeah, I'll be that guy with the shotgun yelling, "You don't want me to smoke a cigar, then suck buckshot!"

Edit to add: it's funny that you should post this now, I did have a student yesterday who told me he had a professor at the school he transferred from show a "9/11 truthers" documentary in class and from the sound of it, it was to convince the class that this was a viable viewpoint. Thank goodness it's a Critical Thinking class I'm teaching because I was able to quickly pick apart any point made for him while demonstrating the techniques we're learning in class. Seriously, though, crazy stuff like that gets taught in colleges and universities all the time.

Your wife is smart.

**Eville** · 09-16-2009, 11:16 AM

I haven't lost any friends to conspiracy theories, but one of mine has turned into quite the d-bag lately. I blame VMI

**Smoked!** · 09-16-2009, 11:18 AM

It's the 80's all over again! Instead of the Commie Bastids, it's the Socialist Bastids.

What I find most interesting about BigMacFU's "9/11 truthers" observation is the suggestion that such things are being "taught", rather than offered as an alternate views of the event. I believe that same is true of much of the "green science" we are being force-fed.

Anyone remember "All In The Family"?

STRUTHERS: You know that 65 percent of the people murdered in the last 10 years were killed by handguns?

O'CONNOR: Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was pushed out of windows?

(LAUGHTER)

STRUTHERS: Well, that's convoluted logic.

O'CONNOR: Yes! And that's the kind of straight thinking I'm trying to put across here!

... I'm just sayin'...

**ggiese** · 09-16-2009, 11:57 AM

One of my best friend preaches the evils of government all the time. The man is a solid very liberal Democrat talking about the evil of government. And - he does not even care in the least for Obama...

I'd love to blame his tenaciousness on his use of mind altering substances - but the guy doesn't even drink water if it's near an open bottle of liquor. And to make matter worse - he's an attorney which greatly improves his arguing skills. The most painful trip in my life was when we drove from Chicago to Indianapolis and talked extensively about his theories.

The problem is, though - there's no argument that things need to change. But - I don't think there's any real way to map out a strategy that will satisfy all. Perhaps it will take some minor "tweeking" - or perhaps a fairly significant overhaul. But - to toss the baby out with the bath water? I don't think so...

The crux of the problem with conspiracy theorists - they totally buy into a concept that truly is on the fringe of logical thinking. Much of what they put forward is feasible - most of it is unlikely. You can argue that eating mash potatoes will cause criminal behavior - you can show statistics that bear out your theory - but, the theory is absolutely ridiculous.

I think the issue is - they'd really like for just ONE person to buy into what they believe to validate for themselves they're not crazy. But - it is that craziness that sets them apart from anyone that would buy into their theory.

**Roger** · 09-16-2009, 02:55 PM

It is an interesting topic for sure. I don't know anyone who has been taken by these conspiricy theories, but they sure have a load of that stuff on youtube. Just type in "new world order" into a youtube browser and see what kind of crap comes up. I feel a bit sorry for those who get suckered into that kind of mentatlity. All of it is based on FEAR and UNCERTAINTY. Not sure what else to think about it. All I know is that it can really mess with the perspectives of people's outlook on life. And of course now we are seeing this in relation to our government with Obama in office and people trying to discreadit him. All of it is very interesting, in my opinion what can a person do for someone who has had their mind taken captive by all this stuff I don't know. But I believe that it would take more than just some simple convincing to sway them from that train of thought.

**cinda** · 09-16-2009, 04:04 PM

What is real intersting is in my entire 48 years of life never once have I ever thought to type new world order into anything let alone u-tube.

**BigMacFU** · 09-16-2009, 05:22 PM

Giese does a good job of describing the general problem with conspiracy theories. One way I've seen it described in what I write and study is basically that: conspiracy theories are internally consistent, they explain everything without contradiction, but they end up with a very small explanatory circle within which one must live. In other words, the conspiracy theory can explain their limited circle very nicely, but it has a hard time subsuming new data and experiences.

**Diesel Grinch** · 09-17-2009, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by BigMacFU

No, but my wife tells me all the time I'm going to be the crazy old man on the porch with a shotgun who yells at even the mailman

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I've seen what other countries look like that continue to increase the size of their government (even efficient ones like Nazi Germany) and it scares the hell out of me.

But, I've also learned from history that man generally has a chance of making it through, though with more advanced technologies and powerful medicines, that chance may continue to shrink. Either way, yeah, I'll be that guy with the shotgun yelling, "You don't want me to smoke a cigar, then suck buckshot!"

Edit to add: it's funny that you should post this now, I did have a student yesterday who told me he had a professor at the school he transferred from show a "9/11 truthers" documentary in class and from the sound of it, it was to convince the class that this was a viable viewpoint. Thank goodness it's a Critical Thinking class I'm teaching because I was able to quickly pick apart any point made for him while demonstrating the techniques we're learning in class. Seriously, though, crazy stuff like that gets taught in colleges and universities all the time.

Originally Posted by nhcigarfan

Your wife is smart.

But crazy, as she did marry BigMacFU.

DG

**craig** · 09-17-2009, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by BigMacFU

Giese does a good job of describing the general problem with conspiracy theories. One way I've seen it described in what I write and study is basically that: conspiracy theories are internally consistent, they explain everything without contradiction, but they end up with a very small explanatory circle within which one must live. In other words, the conspiracy theory can explain their limited circle very nicely, but it has a hard time subsuming new data and experiences.

That's pretty well the definition of "theory." No theory can ever be complete. Gödel applies everywhere

.

People like to believe stuff to assuage their fears ... call it religion, call it science, call it conspiracy, call it a cult.

That's my theory, anyhow

.

**bigwhiteash** · 09-17-2009, 08:33 AM

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

**BigMacFU** · 09-17-2009, 10:47 AM

Godel is wrong though, since that theory "no theory is complete" is complete. And I was probably unclear in defining why conspiracy theories are often problematic. What differentiates conspiracy theories from normal explanations of events is the fact that the explanatory circle is small. It includes all of the evidences, but uses a rather simple, or small explanation to explain all of the evidences. Thus, the conspiracy theory/theorist can answer all of the questions as to why things happen the way they do, it's just that the explanation lacks any nuance or subtlety that real life generally reveals is a part of why things happen the way they do.

Hopefully that's clearer as to what separates a good theory from a bad theory, generally speaking. Sorry for any confusion in my prior attempt at explanation.

Originally Posted by craig

That's pretty well the definition of "theory." No theory can ever be complete. Gödel applies everywhere

.

People like to believe stuff to assuage their fears ... call it religion, call it science, call it conspiracy, call it a cult.

That's my theory, anyhow

.

**heftysmokes** · 09-17-2009, 10:50 AM

This thread makes my head hurt.

**Kenyth** · 09-17-2009, 01:20 PM

I also find that the conspiracy theorists I know aren't one much for laws. They highly value their personal freedom to do as they please and see any infringement on that as a sign of doom. CT's I've known are more prone to own illegal firearms, use illegal substances, use modified/illegal Ham radio/CB/FM commercial band equipment without a license, etc. They stockpile things. They're all prepared for the anarchy that is sure to come, because they are anarchists themselves.

Even IF an army was coming to take over and arrest all non-conforming citizens for some New World Wide order, what are you going to do about it as an individual? Hold out in your home's basement with a couple of mail order AK-47 clones, pump shotguns and pistols? How long can a family live in a dark damp space without power, eating dehydrated food and pissing in mason jars?

**BigMacFU** · 09-17-2009, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kenyth

I also find that the conspiracy theorists I know aren't one much for laws. They highly value their personal freedom to do as they please and see any infringement on that as a sign of doom. CT's I've known are more prone to own illegal firearms, use illegal substances, use modified/illegal Ham radio/CB/FM commercial band equipment without a license, etc. They stockpile things. They're all prepared for the anarchy that is sure to come, because they are anarchists themselves.

Even IF an army was coming to take over and arrest all non-conforming citizens for some New World Wide order, what are you going to do about it as an individual? Hold out in your home's basement with a couple of mail order AK-47 clones, pump shotguns and pistols? How long can a family live in a dark damp space without power, eating dehydrated food and pissing in mason jars?

Hells yeah! We can last forever on Spam and recirculated air, don't you tell me otherwise! I can't believe they got to you Kenyth.

**bigwhiteash** · 09-17-2009, 02:23 PM

Well.. that's pretty much what we're encountering in Afghanistan.

Didn't you ever see the movie Red Dawn?

**craig** · 09-17-2009, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by BigMacFU

Godel is wrong though, since that theory "no theory is complete" is complete. And I was probably unclear in defining why conspiracy theories are often problematic. What differentiates conspiracy theories from normal explanations of events is the fact that the explanatory circle is small. It includes all of the evidences, but uses a rather simple, or small explanation to explain all of the evidences. Thus, the conspiracy theory/theorist can answer all of the questions as to why things happen the way they do, it's just that the explanation lacks any nuance or subtlety that real life generally reveals is a part of why things happen the way they do.

Hopefully that's clearer as to what separates a good theory from a bad theory, generally speaking. Sorry for any confusion in my prior attempt at explanation.

Gödel didn't say that. He said any complete system; isn't.

You weren't unclear. I was just pulling your leg

.

As for Afghanistan, Berlo-whatever-his-name-is should shut the, er, never mind. Was about to get political for a second ...