Where on the political spectrum do you lie? (Mods: Please don't move!)

[cigar no baka]

That's exactly the point I was making. If a supersized national sales tax becomes law and replaces the existing income tax, as an increasing chorus of primarily Republicans suggest it should, the higher prices of goods creates a huge disincentive for making purchases. Our economy is fueled by consumer spending, and such a tax promotes thrift.

We get mixed messages on this subject all the time. Take the days after 9-11, for instance, when our elected leaders encouraged us to do our part to help the economy by "spending" at the local mall and car dealership. Message: we can spend our way to financial prosperity. On the other hand, many of that same lawmakers have since lectured us on our dangerously low personal savings rate, accusing us of recklessly spending our way to personal bankruptcy and leaving ourselves high and dry for our retirement years. Problem is, we can't spend and save at the same time. The conventional wisdom is that we're now moving into a "saving period" where consumers are more like to pinch their pennies than buy big screen TV's. On the surface that sounds good, but an economy of savers is an economy without growth. Just ask the Japanese. There's no easy answers, but the worst-case solution, far as I can tell, is a national sales tax.

It's not that black and white. There is a balance between spending and saving that is good for the economy. Also, from time to time, more spending is helpful, other times, more saving is helpful.

I think a national sales tax would cause upheavals within the economy. I am not an economist, is anyone else? Care to elaborate?

[reaganyouth84]

That's exactly the point I was making. If a supersized national sales tax becomes law and replaces the existing income tax, as an increasing chorus of primarily Republicans suggest it should, the higher prices of goods creates a huge disincentive for making purchases. Our economy is fueled by consumer spending, and such a tax promotes thrift.

We get mixed messages on this subject all the time. Take the days after 9-11, for instance, when our elected leaders encouraged us to do our part to help the economy by "spending" at the local mall and car dealership. Message: we can spend our way to financial prosperity. On the other hand, many of that same lawmakers have since lectured us on our dangerously low personal savings rate, accusing us of recklessly spending our way to personal bankruptcy and leaving ourselves high and dry for our retirement years. Problem is, we can't spend and save at the same time. The conventional wisdom is that we're now moving into a "saving period" where consumers are more like to pinch their pennies than buy big screen TV's. On the surface that sounds good, but an economy of savers is an economy without growth. Just ask the Japanese. There's no easy answers, but the worst-case solution, far as I can tell, is a national sales tax.

Ok, I though you were trying to say that if we stopped buying things like we are that our economy would be better. Now, I see that you are saying, or at least I think, is that if we stop buying then producers of goods can't make as much money or produce as many goods, therefore workers would be laid off, yada yada yada. Just making sure that you were thinking what I was thinking.
-Mike

[reaganyouth84]

It's not that black and white. There is a balance between spending and saving that is good for the economy. Also, from time to time, more spending is helpful, other times, more saving is helpful.

I think a national sales tax would cause upheavals within the economy. I am not an economist, is anyone else? Care to elaborate?

Hang on, I'll go call my buddy Al Greenspan, or as I like to call him the G-Man
-Mike

[Iced T]

identifying

national

purchases

promotes

messages

subject

scenario

supersized

revisions

restructuring

flatlined

destroy

Seriously though. After state, local, national, and other taxes, Americans are really taxed of about 50% of their earnings.

[reaganyouth84]

http://afybush.ytmnd.com/
-Mike

[Kenyth]

I don't know about %50. That sounds like an inflated figure.

What we need to do is centralize a taxation point. Income is a good one. By taxing on multiple levels of activity, you get unfair taxation based on what you do rather than what you make. This is why the wealthy don't like income tax and would rather see other forms of taxes increased. Sales tax, property tax, sin tax, etc. all combine into taxes that hit the middle class harder than anyone else. The top of the economic food chain likes to see the middle class and below spend all their income and save little. This maximizes their economic impact on demand and minimizes the amount of interest earned. Interest is the real moneymaker and the less who earn from it the better for those who do.

Putting money in the bank is almost as bad as spending it. To maximize your wealth accumulation, spend frugally and actively invest. Now, if I could only convince my wife of this . It's too late anyhow. We have the new big house, two cars, and a new baby. We're pretty much breaking even. At least we don't have a slew of credit card debt. Unfortunately, my ex-wife's custody suit sucked up the 5K I had put away before my marriage. The bitch! She even managed to win.

[reaganyouth84]

I don't know about %50. That sounds like an inflated figure.

What we need to do is centralize a taxation point. Income is a good one. By taxing on multiple levels of activity, you get unfair taxation based on what you do rather than what you make. This is why the wealthy don't like income tax and would rather see other forms of taxes increased. Sales tax, property tax, sin tax, etc. all combine into taxes that hit the middle class harder than anyone else. The top of the economic food chain likes to see the middle class and below spend all their income and save little. This maximizes their economic impact on demand and minimizes the amount of interest earned. Interest is the real moneymaker and the less who earn from it the better for those who do.

Putting money in the bank is almost as bad as spending it. To maximize your wealth accumulation, spend frugally and actively invest. Now, if I could only convince my wife of this . It's too late anyhow. We have the new big house, two cars, and a new baby. We're pretty much breaking even. At least we don't have a slew of credit card debt. Unfortunately, my ex-wife's custody suit sucked up the 5K I had put away before my marriage. The bitch! She even managed to win.

That's all good and fine, but you can't even begin to disagree with my last post, haha.
-Mike

[Iced T]

I can personally say for a fact that that is true. Maybe not for everybody though. This includes gas taxes, sales taxes, etc. They worked out a McDonald's workers yearly income and totaled the earnings at 50% of what he grossed, after tax. The average worker has to work to April to start earning money for themselves.

[Amanda]

Iced-T, if the average worker is done paying their taxes for the year by April, then they are not paying 50% of their income to the government. If they were, it would be late June or early July before Tax Freedom Day would arrive.

We'll never reach a national consensus on the proper cost of government or the proper level of taxation. Most of us have our own thoughts on what spending programs government can do without, but with most of the frequently-cited options such as wiping out federal departments or slashing social service costs, the unforeseen consequences would probably overwhelm any perceived benefit. The same can be said about the left's agenda in the 1990's to strip down the post-Cold War military to a skeleton. It was penny-wise but pound foolish, as we now see in the midst of multiple military engagements.

Like just about everybody, I grumble about my own tax burden. The main reason I decided to give up cigarettes was because I didn't want to be the working-class stooge who disproportionately financed the cost of government while the politically-connected enjoy tax cut after tax cut. Nonetheless, it's difficult to envision a scenario where the tax burden will go down as the population ages, as our defense budget bloats amidst the creation of the worthless Homeland Security Department boondoggle, as we watch our employer-financed health care system limp to its tomb, and as the share of the federal budget allocated for national debt interest rises. People who think taxes are too high now are likely to be in for a huge disappointment. Today's deficit-financed tax cuts are really just deferred tax increases when the debt bill comes due along with its crushing interest costs.

[superman78]

Iced-T, if the average worker is done paying their taxes for the year by April, then they are not paying 50% of their income to the government. If they were, it would be late June or early July before Tax Freedom Day would arrive.

We'll never reach a national consensus on the proper cost of government or the proper level of taxation. Most of us have our own thoughts on what spending programs government can do without, but with most of the frequently-cited options such as wiping out federal departments or slashing social service costs, the unforeseen consequences would probably overwhelm any perceived benefit. The same can be said about the left's agenda in the 1990's to strip down the post-Cold War military to a skeleton. It was penny-wise but pound foolish, as we now see in the midst of multiple military engagements.

Like just about everybody, I grumble about my own tax burden. The main reason I decided to give up cigarettes was because I didn't want to be the working-class stooge who disproportionately financed the cost of government while the politically-connected enjoy tax cut after tax cut. Nonetheless, it's difficult to envision a scenario where the tax burden will go down as the population ages, as our defense budget bloats amidst the creation of the worthless Homeland Security Department boondoggle, as we watch our employer-financed health care system limp to its tomb, and as the share of the federal budget allocated for national debt interest rises. People who think taxes are too high now are likely to be in for a huge disappointment. Today's deficit-financed tax cuts are really just deferred tax increases when the debt bill comes due along with its crushing interest costs.

he said a mcdonalds employye paid 50%,and an average worker pays till april

[reaganyouth84]

he said a mcdonalds employye paid 50%,and an average worker pays till april

I know how that guy must feel. I was working in this really terrible factory not too long ago before I decided to go back to school. Making $7.50 an hour, working 16 hour days, 7 days a week. Let me tell you, I grew up REAL fast. The factory and the equipment would've made OSHA vomit The worst thing was, the more I worked, it seemed like the less I made. That's one of the places I first learned about taxes, big government, and what not. Let me tell you, people can talk and argue this point till they are blue in the face, but until you've worked your hands to the bone for 16 hours in 125 degree heat , you can't say a whole lot.
-Mike

[David G. Hall]

Mandy, what is your major?

[cigarsarge]

Mandy, what is your major?

Liberal Arts

[reaganyouth84]

Liberal Arts

Very Liberal Arts and making our brains go numb.
-Mike

[Iced T]

Really, not to say she's wrong though...

[cigarsarge]

I find Amanda's posts interesting...far out...but interesting.

[reaganyouth84]

I find Amanda's posts interesting...far out...but interesting.

Are you saying they are drug induced? hahaha. I think the private message you sent me the other day cigarsarge sums it up.
-Mike

[ggiese]

WOW!!! I'm truly impressed with what I'm reading on CigarSmokers in this thread.

Sorry for the interruption - Carry on....

[Kenyth]

I'm not saying taxes should be reduced. I'm saying tax law should be simplified. I'm also saying that I don't think certain parties WANT tax law to be simplified. Even if it saves money in the end. With complex methods of taxing on multiple levels, the screwed party doesn't even see if or how they're being screwed. Straight shoting tax law would leave the exact figures bared to all. When is the last time creative accounting wanted the figures laid bare?

Amanda is right about one thing. The tax burden at the upper levels is decreasing slowly. The fact that we have a tiered income tax and even so, only a small difference in total tax burden between the upper and middle classes shows that something is wrong.

[Amanda]

My major is education. I'll be teaching social studies, but hopefully end up at a school with political science courses since that's obviously my passion. Considering all the tiny rural schools in Iowa, however, I could easily end up at a school without political science in the courseload.

And to quell all the private message gossip bantered about by you ladies I have never used a drug in my life...not so much as a toke of weed. I even restrict myself to one alcoholic beverage per night out, never once having been drunk in my 21 years. So if you're looking for the source of my "weird posts," it must be the cigars clouding up my brain.

Kenyth, taxes are going down more than a little for upper-income Americans. Since 2001, the top tax rate has fallen from 39.5% to 33%, the tax rate on stock dividends (which are largely held by those in the top income quintile) has fallen by half, and the "Paris Hilton" tax on inheritances is in the process of being wiped out entirely, and 98% of the people affected by that tax are in the top 0.2% of income earners. Considering the inflation of salaries for this income group over the same period, I'd say their doing pretty darn good for themselves in a time of war and perennial 12-figure deficits....and at a time where working-class Americans are undergoing what can only be described as financial genocide.