Debit Card Fruad

[ggiese]

If I had to tak a wild guess ??????? Ordering cigarette's from the Ukraine.
As most of the tobacco vendors I use in Europe are above board, and use well know CC processors.
I trust the merchant in the Ukraine. I think the problem lies with the CC processor they use.

I'd say there's a 99.9% chance you're right on the money. Eastern Europe is loaded with very highly educated IT folks that are also largely unemployed. They have been turning to other means of "employment". I've been chasing those ghosts around for quite some time. Some of the most incredibly "state of the art" malicious software has been originating there. Hackers groups in Eastern Europe actually totally shut down the entire financial sector of the country of Muldova just to prove a point.

I would suggest if you want to order cigarettes from the Ukraine - consider using a credit card that is only used for that purpose, not something you rely on. Something like a pre-paid Visa card or a very low balance credit card that can be easily shut down without affecting you like your checking account debit card. I have a $500 limit Mastercard I use for all of my online purchases (I have to keep telling them NOT to raise the limit), or I use a third party (PoopPal) so that I don't expose my information.

Also - as a heads up - The bank may just end up taking the loss (if they like you), but be cautioned that banks do not like taking losses... Your bank may be frowning on you making purchases like cigarettes or cigars in Eastern Europe. Kind of a two edged sword - one being that you're making purchases in a very high risk environment and also that you're purchasing tobacco products outside the US. They COULD (not that they will) refuse to reimburse you the losses. If they do reimburse, they will try to charge that back to the retailer that took the bogus credit card (who is likely going to object because they want their money). If that's true - and the bank eats it - they might not be so willing to do it next time.

Here's a link to some useful information (the best out there) in dealing with identity theives.

Federal Trade Commission - Identity Theft site

Good luck!

[mrtr33]

Also - as a heads up - The bank may just end up taking the loss (if they like you), but be cautioned that banks do not like taking losses... Your bank may be frowning on you making purchases like cigarettes or cigars in Eastern Europe. Kind of a two edged sword - one being that you're making purchases in a very high risk environment and also that you're purchasing tobacco products outside the US. They COULD (not that they will) refuse to reimburse you the losses. If they do reimburse, they will try to charge that back to the retailer that took the bogus credit card (who is likely going to object because they want their money). If that's true - and the bank eats it - they might not be so willing to do it next time.

Make no mistake - your bank loves you. I've never heard of a bank willingly eat the losses on a transaction with a debit card. I've heard of customers fighting a suspicious charge and winning, but never in the manner you've described. Credit cards, however, reverse charges all the time. We never use the debit card online - ever.

[Paddy]

Make no mistake - your bank loves you. I've never heard of a bank willingly eat the losses on a transaction with a debit card. I've heard of customers fighting a suspicious charge and winning, but never in the manner you've described. Credit cards, however, reverse charges all the time. We never use the debit card online - ever.

I thought that was the point of having Visa attached to debit cards, you are allotted the same protection as a CC.

[ggiese]

I thought that was the point of having Visa attached to debit cards, you are allotted the same protection as a CC.

Visa is just the "conduit" for the transactions on behalf of the bank. Any policies around reimbursing losses are actually tied to the bank itself, not Visa. While it seems the reversal of charges is "automatic", in reality it's not as automatic as it might seem. In the past, many banks would "write off" the charges. Not so much any more. And the retailers were most often willing to "write off" their losses when the banks kicked it back to them. Not so much any more. Increasingly both banks and retailers are pushing back on writing off bad charges. If there able to establish ANY connection to what the customer is doing to the loss of the credit card data - the bank/retailer is going to place the blame squarely on the customer. Think of it this way - if you leave your car keys in the ignition of your car unattended - would GM willingly reimburse you for the theft of your vehicle? ...or the insurance company?

If you KNOW (or "should have known") the credit card transaction was going to be risky - the bank is likely going to hold you responsible for the charges. The ONLY thing that might save you is a long tenured relationship with the bank because they may not want to lose your business. But - be forewarned - they may likely not want to accomodate you more than once or twice....

[Paddy]

Visa is just the "conduit" for the transactions on behalf of the bank. Any policies around reimbursing losses are actually tied to the bank itself, not Visa. While it seems the reversal of charges is "automatic", in reality it's not as automatic as it might seem. In the past, many banks would "write off" the charges. Not so much any more. And the retailers were most often willing to "write off" their losses when the banks kicked it back to them. Not so much any more. Increasingly both banks and retailers are pushing back on writing off bad charges. If there able to establish ANY connection to what the customer is doing to the loss of the credit card data - the bank/retailer is going to place the blame squarely on the customer. Think of it this way - if you leave your car keys in the ignition of your car unattended - would GM willingly reimburse you for the theft of your vehicle? ...or the insurance company?

If you KNOW (or "should have known") the credit card transaction was going to be risky - the bank is likely going to hold you responsible for the charges. The ONLY thing that might save you is a long tenured relationship with the bank because they may not want to lose your business. But - be forewarned - they may likely not want to accomodate you more than once or twice....

So, Maybe I should open a small Visa Credit card account?
I have tried very hard not to use credit cards. I carry an American Express that I only use when we are oversea's on vacation. My day to day transacton are conducted via Visa/debit. I thought I was being fiscally responsible by not racking up CC debt. I could only spend what was in my checking account. I made a point of tossing every pre-approved card offer that came to me away in the fire-place.

[badwhale]

So, Maybe I should open a small Visa Credit card account?
I have tried very hard not to use credit cards. I carry an American Express that I only use when we are oversea's on vacation. My day to day transacton are conducted via Visa/debit. I thought I was being fiscally responsible by not racking up CC debt. I could only spend what was in my checking account. I made a point of tossing every pre-approved card offer that came to me away in the fire-place.

Actually, demonstrating that you are responsible with revolving debt is better for your credit score.

[Paddy]

Well, Lesson learned.
I will change my practices going forward.
I did call BOA one more time just to make sure there was NO misunderstanding about
what they are going to do. They assured me that thier products (credit/debit) cards are covered by a
ZERO-Fraud liabilty plan and I would be compansated for my losses.
But, as George pointed out to me...I will not push my luck

[Paddy]

Actually, demonstrating that you are responsible with revolving debt is better for your credit score.

How the fuck am I supposed to do that? When there is a new L.E. coming out every other week

[Paddy]

I'd say there's a 99.9% chance you're right on the money. Eastern Europe is loaded with very highly educated IT folks that are also largely unemployed. They have been turning to other means of "employment". I've been chasing those ghosts around for quite some time. Some of the most incredibly "state of the art" malicious software has been originating there. Hackers groups in Eastern Europe actually totally shut down the entire financial sector of the country of Muldova just to prove a point.

I would suggest if you want to order cigarettes from the Ukraine - consider using a credit card that is only used for that purpose, not something you rely on. Something like a pre-paid Visa card or a very low balance credit card that can be easily shut down without affecting you like your checking account debit card. I have a $500 limit Mastercard I use for all of my online purchases (I have to keep telling them NOT to raise the limit), or I use a third party (PoopPal) so that I don't expose my information.

Also - as a heads up - The bank may just end up taking the loss (if they like you), but be cautioned that banks do not like taking losses... Your bank may be frowning on you making purchases like cigarettes or cigars in Eastern Europe. Kind of a two edged sword - one being that you're making purchases in a very high risk environment and also that you're purchasing tobacco products outside the US. They COULD (not that they will) refuse to reimburse you the losses. If they do reimburse, they will try to charge that back to the retailer that took the bogus credit card (who is likely going to object because they want their money). If that's true - and the bank eats it - they might not be so willing to do it next time.

Here's a link to some useful information (the best out there) in dealing with identity theives.

Federal Trade Commission - Identity Theft site

Good luck!

Thanks for the heads up George. BOA has already told me that they will cover the false charges. I have been an acount holder for many years with no issue.
As far as ordering in the future, That too was my next move. I plan on opening a second checking account with a visa debit to use only for oversea's purchses. I will only deposit enough to cover the purchase plus $25.00 to leave in the account to keep it open. Or just maybe I should stop smoking cigarettes. It's easy to justify the cost at $16.00 a carton from Eastern Europe as opposed to $75.00 here in Massachusetts. Its a filthy habit I have tried in vain to brake with no luck. Maybe this is a sign

[Paddy]

I'd say there's a 99.9% chance you're right on the money. Eastern Europe is loaded with very highly educated IT folks that are also largely unemployed. They have been turning to other means of "employment". I've been chasing those ghosts around for quite some time. Some of the most incredibly "state of the art" malicious software has been originating there. Hackers groups in Eastern Europe actually totally shut down the entire financial sector of the country of Muldova just to prove a point.

I would suggest if you want to order cigarettes from the Ukraine - consider using a credit card that is only used for that purpose, not something you rely on. Something like a pre-paid Visa card or a very low balance credit card that can be easily shut down without affecting you like your checking account debit card. I have a $500 limit Mastercard I use for all of my online purchases (I have to keep telling them NOT to raise the limit), or I use a third party (PoopPal) so that I don't expose my information.

Also - as a heads up - The bank may just end up taking the loss (if they like you), but be cautioned that banks do not like taking losses... Your bank may be frowning on you making purchases like cigarettes or cigars in Eastern Europe. Kind of a two edged sword - one being that you're making purchases in a very high risk environment and also that you're purchasing tobacco products outside the US. They COULD (not that they will) refuse to reimburse you the losses. If they do reimburse, they will try to charge that back to the retailer that took the bogus credit card (who is likely going to object because they want their money). If that's true - and the bank eats it - they might not be so willing to do it next time.

Here's a link to some useful information (the best out there) in dealing with identity theives.

Federal Trade Commission - Identity Theft site

Good luck!

The CC processer the cigarette company uses is one of the smaller ones that ONLY takes VISA. I tried my Amex with no luck.I have seen this on a number of Eastern European sites, VISA ONLY. No Amex or Mastercard.