The Death Penalty, Kids being charged as Adults

[Kayakinboy]

I'm glad for once it seems we all AGREE on an issue!

[SuperChuck]

I'm glad for once it seems we all AGREE on an issue!

Ha!

I'm COMPLETELY opposed to the death penalty.

I also think it's rediculous to charge kids as adults.

J Edgar Hoover renamed all our prisons to "Correctional Facilities" and I really think he was on to something (about the correctional facilities, not cross-dressing). However, I think the prison system is a COMPLETE failure...

I had a revelation a couple years back. I was watching a documentary on Parris Island and one of the drill sargeants mentioned that roughly half the kids joining the Marines realize that they need discipline; they realize that they can either join the military or end up in prison. So what do you do with the people that go to prison instead? Treat them like Marines!

My "system" puts inmates through a 6 week boot camp loosely based on the Marine Corps model. Once the inmate passes boot (which, like actual boot, may take more than one attempt), the inmate can then join the prison system. The emphasis of the prison system would change as well. Education and hard work are stressed. Inmates are educated in a trade beneficial to the state and put to work. The work should be largely creative in nature: building bridges, levees, repairing municipal buildings, etc. The idea here is to create an understanding of improving society.

The current system brings 'em in, ferments them, and lets them out. Bring 'em in, fix 'em, and get 'em out.

I've never understood charging a child as an adult.
As a society, we have determined that a 15 year old kid does not have the understanding of right and wrong.
Yet, we decide that, if they do something REALLY bad, they MUST have full understanding.
That just doesn't make sense.

An army officer once explained why the army doesn't accept people older than 24 (or whatever the age is). If you tell a 17 year old to take that hill, they don't ask questions. If you tell a 27 year old to take that hill, they'll tell you no fucking way, there are guys shooting up there. The 17 year old understands that there are people up there shooting, but doesn't understand what it MEANS to wind up in a body bag. A 27 year old is typically more mature and self-protective.

If I had the same intellect I had at 15, I'd be dead.

[Diesel Grinch]

I believe in turning over the convicted criminal to the person/family of the one he hurt! They get to decide his/her fate with no fallout for them. Anything goes.

[Drake]

i'll give my opinion, but i'm not too fond of getting into big discussion about this. i disagree with it. i don't believe that any man should have the right to take another man's life for any reason. i don't think death is a punishment anyway. its an easy way for them out of truely living with what they have done. i do think people who commit hainess crimes deserve to be torchered accordingly. for instance: if someone rapes and kills a woman, he should raped and beaten nightly for the entirety of a life sentence. don't let him of easy with the death penalty

[ggiese]

I believe the problem with most people who oppose the death penalty is they've never been face to face with someone who would think less of killing someone as they would reading the morning newspaper. Until you've stared directly in the eyes of that individual, you may want to reserve judgement....

[Drake]

I believe the problem with most people who oppose the death penalty is they've never been face to face with someone who would think less of killing someone as they would reading the morning newspaper. Until you've stared directly in the eyes of that individual, you may want to reserve judgement....

i see what you're saying. i'm not just against it because i think its wrong. its because i think its too humane for some of the crimes that are commited. i think if i was watching someone get a lethal injection for killing my mom, i'd feel like he was let off extremely easy, and i'd wish far worse upon him.

[reaganyouth84]

I agree with ggiese and drake. I understand where they both are coming from. However I don't agree with the "whole oh you are just 15, you don't know what you are doing bit." I understand that a 15 year old might not know that much about finances, politics, having a job, etc...but we are going to deal with this very subject in my community in the coming weeks. At 15 if you don't know that shooting and killing another human being is wrong, then you aren't even human, no if, ands, or buts about it. At 15 they might not realize the life altering decision of jailtime, death penalty, etc...but rest assured they know damn well that taking the breath out of another human being's lungs is wrong.

-Mike

[SuperChuck]

I believe the problem with most people who oppose the death penalty is they've never been face to face with someone who would think less of killing someone as they would reading the morning newspaper

"What do you think about the death penalty for Marcus Chenault, your wife's murderer?"

"Oh, please, don't let them kill him. Please, don't let them do that. That won't bring her back. God's been too good to me for me to hate. He's just a boy. God loves him. God can forgive him. I forgive him. I can't hate."
-Rev. Martin Luther King Sr.

Rev. King's wife was gunned down in his own church, before his very eyes.

A weaker man would have asked for the death penalty, believing they need to take vengeance on this evil kid.

The Kings are the strongest family I have ever seen.

[ggiese]

"What do you think about the death penalty for Marcus Chenault, your wife's murderer?"

"Oh, please, don't let them kill him. Please, don't let them do that. That won't bring her back. God's been too good to me for me to hate. He's just a boy. God loves him. God can forgive him. I forgive him. I can't hate."
-Rev. Martin Luther King Sr.

Rev. King's wife was gunned down in his own church, before his very eyes.

A weaker man would have asked for the death penalty, believing they need to take vengeance on this evil kid.

The Kings are the strongest family I have ever seen.

The King family may be the strongest family you've ever seen - but I say to you again...

You don't have a clue until YOU look into the eyes of someone who is a sociopath - the individual so messed up that he could care less if he kills you or drinks a cup of coffee. Both are equally enjoyable to him...

I have looked into the eyes of a person like that - I have to tell you, it was the most incredibly sobering thing I've ever seen. That was over 20 years ago, and I still get chills...

This guy, in cold blood, put 6 bullets in a cops chest just because the officer asked him for his identification. In prison, this guy beat an inmate to death because he was annoyed. The State's Attorney described it best - "...he has ice water for blood". I don't even feel comfortable knowing he'll be in prison for the rest of his life - he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The thought there was any possibility he could be on the street frankly scares the daylights out of me. If allowed to be walking free on the streets, no doubt he would kill someone - ANYONE (especially the weak - kids, elders, women... They're easy prey). I would be worried if I was in prison with him. He is a stone cold predator. He is all of the evil you can imagine wrapped up in a human body. They make movies about guys like him....

I had a good friend (detective) who worked on the John Wayne Gacy case. He was there for the interviews of Gacy after Gacy was arrested. When I described my guy to him, this guy lit up and said "Gacy was exactly the same way!!!".

There is a time and a place. While I do not think we should execute everyone who murders - there are those individuals that should not be allowed to ever walk in society (including prison) - EVER...

[Baron Porthos]

Seeing as how we are talking about killing our children I thought I should chime in here. I worked for twenty years with children in Residential Treatment Centers here in Wisconsin. I have done training for other people who work with children at many different levels. Local, state, international. We do not have the death penalty in Wisconsin and I am happy for that. I have as George said looked into the eyes of these children many would have us kill. A lot are not going to change no matter what you do. It is important to deal with them clearly. One way is to kill them. Sends a clear message as to how we will deal with the next one. Another way is to provide them with clearly defined structure. Unfortunately no where in a free society are we so clearly defined. Another way is to escort them through the daily pace of life in a community. This to me makes the most sense. Kids are not very articulate so even if they can tell you what the problem is it may be hard for us to understand. Without some one to help them fight off the deafening images of how tough they are because they have killed someone they will be lost. I am not claiming It will matter for all of the kids in our country. I am saying there are a lot of kids between honor student and hardened criminal. Each group has its murderers and leaders. Giving children a chance beyond the death penalty is good with me.
In case you haven't noticed my flaming liberal let me make it more clear. I think as long as we put more money into corporations than we do into our children we will continue to reap what we sow.
I support the death penalty 100% for adults without mitigating circumstances. Like DNA evidence that says they could not have committed a crime. Or is it worse to have a jury with the inability to understand what the Dna evidence tells them.

I have to go smoke a PAM then take a nap.

[pierce652]

I am for the death penalty as well as the execution of minors if the crime is fitting. These persons who are tried as adults can comprehend right from wrong and know dead is dead. To say they cant comprehend the permancy of death is not giving them enough credit. Dont get me wrong, I follow your logic and dont disagree with it, however to say they have the young persons invincible attitude does not detract from their actions.

As far as the boot camp and education in a trade theory, I like it. However, this would not work either. The boot camps have been tried without success and in order to teach prisoners how to build levees and repair buildings you would first have to teach a great many of them to read, write, add and subtract. Were not talking about educated people here. Financially its insaine.

In the state of Connecticut it costs the taxpayers $135 per day per inmate. Each cell has two televisions with cable so that the inmates wont fight over programs they want to watch. To take on the education you speak of would increase this price many times over. If you want it done then there should be a special box you check on your tax return...I dont want to give these people one more cent of my money. I deal with these people day in and day out...they would rather slit your throat than take your education...and this goes for the "children" as well.


Ggiese is correct in his statements. To simply look at some of these people is scarry and until you deal with them, talk to them and see the complete lack of regard for human life you shouldnt judge....then again those opposed would then argue that it is society's fault that they lack the regard and we should do something about that too. To this I say open your home to them, bring them in and see what happens. Then come back and let us know how warm and fuzzy you feel.

[Shagaroo]

I've never understood charging a child as an adult.
As a society, we have determined that a 15 year old kid does not have the understanding of right and wrong.
Yet, we decide that, if they do something REALLY bad, they MUST have full understanding.
That just doesn't make sense.

I vehemently disagree with this. To me, this is not much more than modern day mumbo jumbo to remove personal responsiblity from people. I knew right from wrong when I was 15. I knew right from wrong when I was 12. I knew I screwed up when I was 6 and hit my parents brand spankin' new white Pinto with my bike and dented it when mom told me to ride my bike away from the carport. That's why I went inside and got some tape and toilet paper to cover over the dent. Kids know. That's why more don't get daddies gun and blow away their problems. The difference is, now people have been taught nothing is their own fault. They aren't old enough, they aren't smart enough, they aren't rich enough, their house is in the wrong part of town, etc., etc. Blame anything but the folks responsible.

[basil]

Ha!

I'm COMPLETELY opposed to the death penalty.

I also think it's rediculous to charge kids as adults.

J Edgar Hoover renamed all our prisons to "Correctional Facilities" and I really think he was on to something (about the correctional facilities, not cross-dressing). However, I think the prison system is a COMPLETE failure...

I had a revelation a couple years back. I was watching a documentary on Parris Island and one of the drill sargeants mentioned that roughly half the kids joining the Marines realize that they need discipline; they realize that they can either join the military or end up in prison. So what do you do with the people that go to prison instead? Treat them like Marines!

My "system" puts inmates through a 6 week boot camp loosely based on the Marine Corps model. Once the inmate passes boot (which, like actual boot, may take more than one attempt), the inmate can then join the prison system. The emphasis of the prison system would change as well. Education and hard work are stressed. Inmates are educated in a trade beneficial to the state and put to work. The work should be largely creative in nature: building bridges, levees, repairing municipal buildings, etc. The idea here is to create an understanding of improving society.

The current system brings 'em in, ferments them, and lets them out. Bring 'em in, fix 'em, and get 'em out.

I've never understood charging a child as an adult.
As a society, we have determined that a 15 year old kid does not have the understanding of right and wrong.
Yet, we decide that, if they do something REALLY bad, they MUST have full understanding.
That just doesn't make sense.

An army officer once explained why the army doesn't accept people older than 24 (or whatever the age is). If you tell a 17 year old to take that hill, they don't ask questions. If you tell a 27 year old to take that hill, they'll tell you no fucking way, there are guys shooting up there. The 17 year old understands that there are people up there shooting, but doesn't understand what it MEANS to wind up in a body bag. A 27 year old is typically more mature and self-protective.

If I had the same intellect I had at 15, I'd be dead.

The boot camp thing has been tried. The last one was dismantled a couple of months ago - it was in CA and was part of the Bureau of Prisons (BOP - Federal). The "creative labor" thing is and has been part of prison systems for decades. I don't know the stats re: what has been helpful and what hasn't. I do believe strongly that prison has become simply a bandaid for a symptom of much larger problem; you're right about the fact that the prison systems, federal AND state, are largely failures. The problem: lack of accountability.

On whether an adolescent has an abstract grasp of death, right and wrong, or whatever, varies from one person to the next.

[SuperChuck]

The boot camp thing has been tried. The last one was dismantled a couple of months ago - it was in CA and was part of the Bureau of Prisons (BOP - Federal).

Weren't those the crazy tent city things? I think the guy that was running those was a total nut... I believe they were effective, but the guy running them was whacky.

The "creative labor" thing is and has been part of prison systems for decades.

I've seen a lot of labor, but not a lot of creative labor.
Picking up garbage and doing laundry doesn't really give you a feeling of building something, something to be proud of. There's just going to be more litter and laundry tomorrow...

[cigarsarge]

Fifteen year olds know right from wrong. If they don't why do so many of em run from crime scenes when authorities approach?

Death Penalty

Juveniles Charged As Adults

[SuperChuck]

I think there's a big difference between "knowing right from wrong" and having a full understanding of right and wrong.

As a kid, I knew it was "wrong" to kill someone, but I had NO CONCEPT of the repercussions of actually killing someone.

I had all these valiant ideas in my head about dying in the line of duty and laying down my life for the good of the nation. Now as an old guy, you couldn't drag my ass into Iraq. I understood that dying was a bad thing, but I didn't really understand the permanence of death.

[cigarsarge]

I think there's a big difference between "knowing right from wrong" and having a full understanding of right and wrong.

As a kid, I knew it was "wrong" to kill someone, but I had NO CONCEPT of the repercussions of actually killing someone.

You sadly under estimate the teenagers of today. The kids I deal with know exactly what they are doing and repercussions. The typical "gangster" kid I deal with knows full well death is final, the repercussions in the famly of the deceased, and what could happen to them if caught. They just don't give a crap. The only exception being mentally challenged kids.