Cigarsmokers.com Box Pass Ver. 2.0

[ggiese]

That's why I posted the request for someone to do a Lexis search for cases related to this issue. It seems to me there have been some challenges - the last I heard was actually someone coming into the country with a fairly substantial number of Cubans and they were seized by Customs. If I recall correctly, his challenge was that possession was not illegal. I don't know if the case was resolved, but if I remember correctly, there were a number of legal minds who believed he had a solid case...

As far a possession in your home, I have NEVER heard of any law enforcement entity showing up as someone's house and seizing their collection of Cuban cigars. There's too many other bad things out there that deserve FAR more attention (drugs would be a good start). I've heard of inviduals that have openly and notoriously sold Cubans, LOTS OF CUBANS, that have been busted and their stock seized, but those are extreme cases.

I'm still of the understanding that the mere possession of Cuban cigars is not illegal. Buying, selling and trading would be - but one would have to really be a bonehead to get arrested for it. After all, how do they get away with selling them on the Yahoo! and eBay auction sites?

The absolute worst I've heard is confiscation and a stern scolding, unless you really want to go do jail and flaunt it in the face of the government...

[ggiese]

http://usembassy.state.gov/posts/cu1/wwwhleg.html

This is a good link to some information. I may do some research (since I am an attorney) with regard to "possession" being covered under the Act. However, how does one possess a cuban product unless he violated the "buy, sell, trade, deal in, import" prohibitions which are covered in the Act?

Interesting question.

Jaewing - I don't know what area of law you practice - and I'm interested in your research of this issue - and please don't take insult from this, but unless you practice law related to criminal prosecution on the Federal level, you're opinion is about the same as mine.

I will say this, being in the criminal justice system - as much as one may try, stretching a prosecution for "possession" out of "buy, sell, or trade" is fraught with disaster. You'd have some HUGE legal hurdles to overcome to establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt in that case, not the least of which being there is no specific charge for possession. You'd have some HUGE legal hurdles to establish probable cause for an arrest warrant - and probable cause is just above a "hunch" on the proof scale.

I have a funny feeling we're not going to see the Cuban cigar nazi's breaking down our doors, cleaning out our stashes. It is wise of you Hex, not to bring on the ire of the federal government on this issue. It is still considered "Trading with the Enemy" - and in our current political climate, it's not a good idea to be considered trading with the enemy (although Fidel Castro is small potatoes compared to others the government is interested in).

I personally don't see anything wrong with talking about Cuban cigars. I can see a Mods position of wanting to call them something else other than Cuban cigars for the good of the board. I can also see establishing a rule which discourages talking openly about sources, trades and sales. And I absolutely HATE those people who post the shill sites selling fake Cubans. But, if there is to be a rule, then I believe guidelines need to be established. Black and White - you talk about it or you don't. If you are going to allow conversations about, then what is permissable? And the rule should not be arbitrary, it should be universal. Mods should be PMing those that are violating the rules - EVERYONE violating the rule...

[CoventryCat86]

It could be relevant if you ended up in front of a judge that was thinking along the same lines as jaewing. That is what is so bad about our laws, they are open for so much interpretation.

That is completely untrue (your first sentence, the part I put in bold).

[jaewing]

ggiese,

Yes you are absolutely correct and no I did not take any offense. I have some experience in the criminal defense field, and none in Federal law, but not nearly enough to either give advice or reach a solid and legally sound conclusion on this matter.

The smartest man is the one who knows that which he does not know and is willing to admit it.

I have a funny feeling we're not going to see the Cuban cigar nazi's breaking down our doors

LMFAO Although it is getting closer to that here in California. Good thing we don't want to smoke cuban cigarrettes!

This is the Police . . . drop your Cubans and nobody will be hurt!

I have vivid images in my head of the Illian Gonzales raid in Florida . . . police and SWAT in riot gear with automatic weapons staking out a humidor!

Coventrycat,

Not sure what you mean by your comment that it is irrelevant . . . and this is not a jab at you personally . . . but I beleive all opinions and comments carry some relevance - especially in a forum if not in the law.

My comments regarding "possession" as opposed to actual trade, sale, dealing and the like was merely an observation based on a cursory glance at some materials regaridng the embargo and Cuban cigars. I am sure if I spent some time (an no I probably wont do research on this topic now that I have looked at my desk this morning ) I could come to some sound legal conclusions (regardless of my particular field of practice) since the internet and WestLaw and LexisNexis are outstanding resources.

[Oblik]

This has been hashed and rehashed for over 40 years and ggiese is right, the Trading with the Enemy Act has no teeth with respect to "possession" therefore your question:

is certainlly a very interesting one but that is completely irrelevant.

It depends on the amount and your intentions. If you have a few sticks or a couple of boxes for personal consumption I don't think that the authorities would mess with you. Now if you have a room full of them and there is evidence of you selling them then that is a different story.

[CoventryCat86]

It depends on the amount and your intentions. If you have a few sticks or a couple of boxes for personal consumption I don't think that the authorities would mess with you. Now if you have a room full of them and there is evidence of you selling them then that is a different story.

And you could have a couple of hundred thousand for personal consumption (because there are people who have that many cigars in their personal possession) with no fear of being indicted for violating the "Trading with the Enemy Act"

[CoventryCat86]

Not sure what you mean by your comment that it is irrelevant . . . and this is not a jab at you personally . . . but I beleive all opinions and comments carry some relevance - especially in a forum if not in the law.

I thought it was pretty clear the first time, you posed a question:

However, how does one possess a cuban product unless he violated the "buy, sell, trade, deal in, import" prohibitions which are covered in the Act?

which I stated (or maybe didn't state clearly enough) that possession of a Cuban product is IRRELEVANT when determining if one has violated the "Trading With the Enemy Act" since as ggiese pointed out, the Trading With the Enemy Act DOES NOT make it illegal to possess Cuban products. I did NOT say your opinion was irrelevant.

[ggiese]

LMFAO Although it is getting closer to that here in California. Good thing we don't want to smoke cuban cigarrettes!

In that case, since you live in California, I would strongly suggest you better fortify your doors and windows... There IS a good chance the Cigar nazi's will be paying you a visit!!!

[Oblik]

And you could have a couple of hundred thousand for personal consumption (because there are people who have that many cigars in their personal possession) with no fear of being indicted for violating the "Trading with the Enemy Act"

This could be extreme. You may get a little crap from the government for that, purhaps they would be taken, a few months probation and a something-thousand dollar fine. Pretty much a slap on the wrist for someone who can afford a very large amout of Cuban cigars.

[CoventryCat86]

This could be extream. You may get a little crap from the government for that, purhaps they would be taken, a few months probation and a something-thousand doller fine. Pretty much a slap on the wrist for someone who can afford a very large amout of Cuban cigars.

"Extream" Good God, PLEASE LEARN TO SPELL, I thought you graduated from college. Please tell me which school so I can know NOT to recommend it to anyone.
"doller" & "purhaps" C'mon Oblik, the old "fast typing" excuse is out the window on those.

And what the hell are you talking about (I think you meant "extreme")? How would one "get a little crap from the government for that"? As ggiese and I have been explaining all along, possession of Cuban cigars is not a violation of the "Trading With the Enemy Act" can't you understand that? I guess not........

[Oblik]

spelling fixed...sorry for being such a poor speller Cat...my bad...

I would love to think that possession of Cuban product is not illegal. Pre-embargo stuff is for sure legal but if it was brought in after that then the possession is legal, I think. When it all boils down there is really knwo way to know for sure if it was pre-embargo oor not. I here waht you are saying, just wish that I had some rock solid proof. Not that I'm worried or anything...

[CoventryCat86]

spelling fixed...sorry for being such a poor speller Cat...my bad...

I would love to think that possession of Cuban product is not illegal. Pre-embargo stuff is for sure legal but if it was brought in after that then the possession is legal, I think. When it all boils down there is really knwo way to know for sure if it was pre-embargo oor not. I here waht you are saying, just wish that I had some rock solid proof. Not that I'm worried or anything...

LOL, just bustin' yer balz!! And I won't even mention the spelling problems here, okay

I understand your concern and I know it's hard to buy my arguments but based on what I know and have seen on various cigar boards and heard from other people, mere possession (even it it's a heck of a lot) won't get you in trouble. Like I said, yep it's hard to convince you of that but that's how I see it and again, I can see why you're apprehensive about taking my word for it (which is fine because you sound like you'd be less likely to get into trouble that others who are less concerned about it which is probably a good thing ).

However, using my pretty extreme example, if a person had a couple hundred thousand Cuban cigars in his possession, I'd bet that a good check of this person's finances would turn up the evidence of "Trading with the Enemy" and THAT'S what would bag him

Oh crap! I just realized something, sorry for bogging down your pass thread with all this superficial discussion. This is where I agree with Oblik (who has asked in the past to please keep a thread on a pass ON TOPIC about the pass which really is the way to go), I shoulda started another thread on the topic instead of clogging up your pass thread on this, again, sorry.......

[ggiese]

I'm going to threadjack just a bit - because it is germaine to the discussion of this pass..

Please - anyone - show me where ANYONE, ANYWHERE in the US that has been arrested (not tried or convicted) of "Possession" of Cuban Cigars. I have not seen one. I've not seen it in any of the cigar boards I've been involved in - and that would be a hot topic of discussion if it happened...

My point - I really don't think anyone has anything to worry about being arrested for "possession". I would suggest, however, that no one make a big deal out of possessing any Cubans to see if the arrest for "possession" theory works...

[CoventryCat86]

I'm going to threadjack just a bit - because it is germaine to the discussion of this pass..

Please - anyone - show me where ANYONE, ANYWHERE in the US that has been arrested (not tried or convicted) of "Possession" of Cuban Cigars. I have not seen one. I've not seen it in any of the cigar boards I've been involved in - and that would be a hot topic of discussion if it happened...

My point - I really don't think anyone has anything to worry about being arrested for "possession". I would suggest, however, that no one make a big deal out of possessing any Cubans to see if the arrest for "possession" theory works...

Let's all give the Feds Carlos' address and see if anything happens.

Just kidding Oblik (sorry if maybe that wasn't such a good thing to joke about but I don't mean anything bad by it )

[jaewing]

When do we begin v2.0?

[labmonkey]

I'm going to threadjack just a bit - because it is germaine to the discussion of this pass..

Please - anyone - show me where ANYONE, ANYWHERE in the US that has been arrested (not tried or convicted) of "Possession" of Cuban Cigars. I have not seen one. I've not seen it in any of the cigar boards I've been involved in - and that would be a hot topic of discussion if it happened...

My point - I really don't think anyone has anything to worry about being arrested for "possession". I would suggest, however, that no one make a big deal out of possessing any Cubans to see if the arrest for "possession" theory works...

I'll take Coventry's place here since he must not know how to spell this one...

it's germane, not germaine

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Just wondering if this thing was still a go?

[Diesel Grinch]

Anyone every think about posting the list? As it makes it way post the takes and adds. Might make some cry as to what they might have just missed out on or for joy on what's coming to them. Plus it lets others see what members on this board consider good or interesting.

[cockyhoskins]

We can do that. I have been busy this week. (You guys know that I have a real job, right? ) I still need to post a recap of Ver 1.0. I haven't even opened the humi yet.

[CoventryCat86]

I'll take Coventry's place here since he must not know how to spell this one...

it's germane, not germaine

YEAH GEOGE WHAT HE SAID



(Oh and I spelled George wrong on purpose, it's an inside joke)