12th Man

[WhiteWidow]

So who's side is everyone taking on this one and why?

[slcraiders]

I choose the Seahawks on this one, even though I am pulling for Pitt in the SuperBowl. That stadium is uniquely beautiful! The reason for my choice is because Paul Allen spent a lot of his own money for the new stadium and even more money to buy the franchise in 96' (I believe) when it looked like they were headed to move to L.A. When he lead the stadium building initiative- he stated something to the effect to the Washington tax-payers "if you are out- then so am I" He even fronted the airtime for this message. He did not buy a vote. He was able to rally the population around a cause that he cared for to split the expense. Balls out move in my book. Bringing Holmgren in as coach and other players, either existing or as draft picks, helped to solidify his commitment. That city created the 12th man, whereas a college either has a good stadium or not. In Texas, football is like religion. To pull this off in the Great Northwest is an entirely different feat!!!

[TheVitaleMob]

Edited because I'm a retard and don't know what I'm talking about!!

[WhiteWidow]

In 1922, in Dallas, during the Dixie Classic, the forerunner to the Cotton Bowl, an Aggie, E. King Gil, was called from the stands to suit up as a substitute. Hence the phrase, "12th Man"

Even if A&M didn't possess the federal trademarks that it does, it would still have rights to the idea by commonlaw. As you can see, the real 12th man has been around for generations, when did the Seahawks become a team? The Aggies also stand through the entire 60 minutes of every football game, just as Gil was the last one standing on the sidelines during the Dixie Classic, do they do that in Seattle (If so, that is impressive for a pro team)? While I've never been to Qwest Field, and without blowing smoke up anyone's ass, I'm pretty sure that Kyle Field is bigger and louder, with a capacity of well over 90,000.

[SuperChuck]

Where's the "it should be in the public domain" option???

The spirit of trademark is that no one is allowed to steal your product name. I can't call my product Coca-Cola because it misleads the public.

Owning a registered trademark or copyright shows that you were the first body to obtain that trademark or copyright. Trademarks and copyrights can be challenged for legitimacy as well as first right of use.

There were a lot of patents like this during the dot com boom. People were sneaking in patents on how to make chocolate, then suing chocolate makers. Hershey can obviously show that they have been making chocolate before the patent was filed, therefore they can show this patent to be illegitimate.

The same goes for copyright. It just means that Stephen King was the first to register this book. If someone came forth and claimed he stole the manuscript, the onus is on the claimant to prove he had the manuscript before King registered it.

Trademark is a little trickier, because of fair use and logos and all sorts of weirdness. "The 12th man" will probably not hold up in court, but the 12th man flag may. And that doesn't even get into the contractual side of things. Hell, the NFL may lay claim to the 12th man trademark as part of a league agreement...

[WhiteWidow]

Trademark is a little trickier, because of fair use and logos and all sorts of weirdness. "The 12th man" will probably not hold up in court, but the 12th man flag may. And that doesn't even get into the contractual side of things. Hell, the NFL may lay claim to the 12th man trademark as part of a league agreement...

I don't think they're trying to lay claim to the number "12" itself, because that is retarded, but just the idea of the 12th man.

Another thing I forgot to add is that a bunch of former A&M coaches have now ended up in Seattle, just about the same time the Seattle 12th man starts to get big again.

[basil]

I agree w/WW on this - not an Aggie, but tradition is more important that Seahawk marketing.

[SuperChuck]

I don't think they're trying to lay claim to the number "12" itself, because that is retarded, but just the idea of the 12th man.

You can't trademark a number (although people have tried), but you can trademark a logo. For example, I have an iPortal glass on my desk (from a likely-defunct software comany); the logo on the glass is the letter i. They obviously do not own the trademark for the letter i, but they do own the trademark on their logo (which is a particularly ugly i).

I think the term "12th man" is a common enough term that it can be considered vernacular. For example, if Minute Maid wanted to trademark the phrase "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade", they couldn't stop anyone else from using that, because it's part of the vernacular.

Similarly, the Aggies would have a hard time "regaining" the trademark on the 12th man. Even if they can prove that they were the first to use the term, it has fallen into common use and became part of the language before they filed the copyright.

I think it's like the first guy who said "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" coming out and laying claim to that phrase. Even if it can be proven, it's been in the public domain for too long.

[WhiteWidow]

Similarly, the Aggies would have a hard time "regaining" the trademark on the 12th man. Even if they can prove that they were the first to use the term, it has fallen into common use and became part of the language before they filed the copyright.

If this is the case then everyone else can just be considered a copier I guess, and I'm ok with that.