Middle east outcome

[cigarsarge]

I...Like you... Have studied the Patriot Act numerous times. Today was not mt first time to look it over as you seem to believe.

Unlike you I don't believe the government is snooping into my every aspect of my life so the ACLU page was no big deal...They make about as much sense as you.

I just realized something...You left wingers have alot in common with the far right. You both believe the government is sneaking up on you to violate your constitutional rights.

[SmokinDVM]

I...Like you... Have studied the Patriot Act numerous times. Today was not mt first time to look it over as you seem to believe.

Unlike you I don't believe the government is snooping into my every aspect of my life so the ACLU page was no big deal...They make about as much sense as you.

I just realized something...You left wingers have alot in common with the far right. You both believe the government is sneaking up on you to violate your constitutional rights.

The point is, you don't KNOW if they are or not, and they don't have to tell you.


And I'll bet thousands of jews continued to deny the possibility that they were being taken to their death, right up untill it happened.

Sometimes, the conspiracy theory is true. I'd rather not have to just trust that the government will do the right thing, no matter who's in charge at the time. Because, the thing that usually happens, is seldom right for anyone except those in charge. History backs me up on this one.

[bluesman455]

[bluesman455]

[SuperChuck]

I just realized something...You left wingers have alot in common with the far right. You both believe the government is sneaking up on you to violate your constitutional rights.

Hehehe, I was JUST thinking that!

It seems that the far left and the far right are both yelling "You're taking away my rights!"

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Just to comment on the Patriot act real quickly...

No one ever wanted the Patriot Act to be a permanent solution. It was only meant as a stopgap to help the executive branch fight a "war" we are unfamiliar with fighting.

The Patriot Act was extended recently, but i seem to recall it reduced a bit. It wasn't significant, but it was a baby step toward its revocation.

[Kenyth]

Suppressing protestors is nothing new. It's been happening as long as I can remember. Protestors have the habit of stabbing themselves in the foot to get attention. I don't think peaceful protesting equates to being a royal pain in the ass or a major disruption at an event. Many protestors will take things too far, given the opportunity. The local officials don't particularly like being embarrassed by disruptive behavior when the big guys come to visit. They see it as a reflection on themselves and their ability to provide for the VIP visit. A disruptive occurance, such as a wayward egg or tomato for instance, will make sure visiting dignitaries will avoid their areas for a long time to come. This leads to a little overzealousness with the local law enforcement. It also leads to taking advantage of the situation to squelch the protestors exposure by the VIP's people.

[ggiese]

Suppressing protestors is nothing new. It's been happening as long as I can remember. Protestors have the habit of stabbing themselves in the foot to get attention. I don't think peaceful protesting equates to being a royal pain in the ass or a major disruption at an event. Many protestors will take things too far, given the opportunity. The local officials don't particularly like being embarrassed by disruptive behavior when the big guys come to visit. They see it as a reflection on themselves and their ability to provide for the VIP visit. A disruptive occurance, such as a wayward egg or tomato for instance, will make sure visiting dignitaries will avoid their areas for a long time to come. This leads to a little overzealousness with the local law enforcement. It also leads to taking advantage of the situation to squelch the protestors exposure by the VIP's people.

...yep - and then you get the knuckleheads who WANT to be arrested - they go out of their way to do it. It gets main stream press, advances their argument (that our country is becoming a nazi Germany), and they get to do the wounded puppy whine (exactly like that one first person press story DVM quoted)...

[Kenyth]

...yep - and then you get the knuckleheads who WANT to be arrested - they go out of their way to do it. It gets main stream press, advances their argument (that our country is becoming a nazi Germany), and they get to do the wounded puppy whine (exactly like that one first person press story DVM quoted)...

Idiots make it hard on everyone. Truly reasonable and peaceful protestors get treated pretty badly because of groups like the church that was picketing soldiers funerals.

Let's not treat the other side as angels without an agenda either though. If making a molehill into a mountain and supressing a few rights will keep the protestors (and bad press) out of sight, they'll jump on it in a heartbeat! Local officials will also protect their interests without regard for the right to peacefully protest. That's what happens when you have a confict of interests with the big boy's though.

[SmokinDVM]

Idiots make it hard on everyone. Truly reasonable and peaceful protestors get treated pretty badly because of groups like the church that was picketing soldiers funerals.

Let's not treat the other side as angels without an agenda either though. If making a molehill into a mountain and supressing a few rights will keep the protestors (and bad press) out of sight, they'll jump on it in a heartbeat! Local officials will also protect their interests without regard for the right to peacefully protest. That's what happens when you have a confict of interests with the big boy's though.

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

[ggiese]

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

So you're condoning someone acting like an ass - TRYING to get arrested - so they can prove the point that they got arrested for carrying out their "civil rights"???

Again - while it seems logical that anywhere on American soil someone can say what they want, when they want and how they want based upon the US consitution - even the Supreme Court disagrees with you... They've had numerous rulings over our history placing limits on what free speech really is. But there are those who are very willing will test those limits for the purpose of furthering their argument that we are not a free society...

But then, Barry - do you really wanna see what free speech is not or what a "nazi" government REALLY is? Have one of your pals heckle the administration during a speech in Iran - or Syria - or North Korea - or Iraq (before we engaged them). It won't take much to draw a response - far less than it would if you tried it here... And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you. I assure you - there would be no desire to ever heckle again (if you managed to survive the "discussion" they had with you about "heckling")...

No comparison, my friend - NO COMPARISON...

Free does not mean without responsibility...

[Kenyth]

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

I didn't say it was OK. I said that's the way it IS. If you think it's bad now, read up on how things were done as little as a hundred years ago. The world can be a very unfair place. Just because someone cries foul, it doesn't mean everything changes. You'll have to fight it in court. That takes a lot of money and dedication. Not a job for one man. That's why it's best to organize or join a respected interest group and volunteer money and time there. You probably won't get to wear thongs in public as much, but you just might get legal representation and a voice that can really make a difference. Everyone has their own interests and tries to protect them as best they can, so it won't be easy. Pick your battles wisely and don't expend yourself on a fools errand.

Segregating picketers based on their message is wrong, but making an obscene spectacle in public is also wrong. Too often protests turn into embarassments and sometimes riots. Butting heads with the local authorities won't win you much sympathy. Righteousness generally isn't taken much into consideration when dealing with troublemakerswho incite disturbances.