Why are we fighting???

[ggiese]

Rohan has brought up a very good point. I, and others, have been posting our thoughts about issues in a thread that was meant for cigar discussion. As a matter of fact, it had to do with a cigar review - unfortunately, the review has become more of banter back and forth about what is right and wrong. So, I'd like to start this thread to discuss what it is that has brought concerns from other members of this board.

Please - do not participate in this thread if you are easily offended. I'm not suggesting that this will go bad, but it seems some are a bit sensitive about honest assessments and answers to their posts. This is not intended to be a flame fest, but instead, to clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings of peoples intentions. Hex, I sincerely hope you don't lock this thread, or allow posts to be deleted. I believe that once everyone understands peoples motivations, this thread will quickly fade.

But until then, let the discussion begin...

I wish to start out with a point that Rohan made about a post I made on the other thread. It goes something like this...

I'm sorry I offended you... But, let me ask you a question. When does what's posted here not become "useless slander"? Would that be when you are burned on a trade? Would it then be right to post about being burned without it being "useless slander"? I think Dave Razz has the right to ask the questions he does. And I believe he is owed answers about his trade. Sorry if it's on this board, but where else should it be? Should it be in private e-mails and PM's? That's already been done and there has been no resolution. And it appears Carlos continues to trade in questionable cigars...

One post warning us of Oblik and the experience you had trading with him would not be useless slander. Bringing 5 or so buddys onto this board to correct his grammar and continue to disrupt his posts is "useless slander"......

Rohan - Then I guess you misunderstood this whole discussion. I'm not Dave's Buddy - I don't know him. I see from his post counts on other boards he is an active participant, and from the sounds of things, seems to be respected. I do know of CoventryCat86, and have had conversations with him. I trust and value his opinions. He is a very knowledgeable BOTL, with a wealth of experience. I don't know who the other two are (totalling 5, including me).

I will tell you that there are individuals I see here, if they chose to, could cause havoc on this board if it were their intent. They would bring WAY more than "5 or so" buddies. I will also tell you that they obviously do not want to do that, because they are respectable people. So your comment about "5 or so buddys" disrupting this board seems without merit to me...

Also, I think you can see from the posts - there are issues aside from the trading - i.e. Mod status on this and another board. I've seen he's "exercised" his mod powers to delete posts on the other board, and now on this board (including mine, and I am offended). That's a VERY dangerous practice. Again - I appeal to you to understand the gravity of that "power" (i.e. Censorship) I don't believe that should be abused and should only to be exercised in extreme circumstances. Deleting posts can change the whole flavor of a conversation - especially if you're trying to hide something.

I'm also trying to understand why I'm the bad guy - you are responding to my posts in this thread, disrupting the conversation. So I guess it's okay for you to do that, but not me? I'm sorry, I'm having a little bit of trouble with grasping that concept.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you haven't been around cigar boards for very long, so I can appreciate the lack of understanding. I'd suggest you check out the boards that have been running for a long time, and have a large membership to see what is successful and not successful. The long running, high membership boards are places where everyone's opinion is valued, even though other members may not agree. They are not over moderated, they don't delete posts or lock threads unless it is an extreme situation. Otherwise the value of deleting posts and locking threads loses impact, which further leads to the loss of credibility for the board.

[CoventryCat86]

Well said George.

Rohan, I think you were WAY out of line accusing ggiese of "bringing 5 or so buddies" here since I signed up BEFORE he did and I can't see ANY link to anyone who has signed up after him as you wrongfully stated. As I mentioned in another post, you comment certainly qualifies as "useless slander" more than anything ggiese or I have posted on this site.

A few others here seem more than eager to jump to conclusions and respond to some of my posts with smart-assed comments before they know all the facts. No big deal since most of them have since realized they were maybe a little out of line and have pulled their horns in and/or sent me a PM with an explanation.

Yep, as anyone can clearly see, I've had experiences with Oblik on another board by watching how he behaves and how he abused and was insulting and rude to quite a few of my friends. In my opinion he should NOT be a moderator of this board. He's too immature, too much of a hot head and is quite lacking in his knowledge of cigars. To be a "moderator" one must be mature and even tempered and display some level of objectivity which I have never seen in Oblik's posts anywhere.

Posts SHOULD NOT BE DELETED especially when Oblik only does it because HE doesn't like the content of the post. This is a gross abuse of his power and he should be warned to stop such nonsense immediately or his moderator status should be taken away.

The more established cigar boards are "self moderated" and the site administrators only step in when the "flaming" or name calling gets way out of hand.

ggiese is right, many of you guys here should check out other cigar boards and see how they are run because I don't recognize most of you from any other on-line cigar BB's.

I would hate to see hex1848's site crash and burn the way LetsTalkCigars did because of poor choices by the moderators and the site owner.

[cockyhoskins]

I agree and disagree. I am a vet of many boards including CA, CW, cigarbid, and now this one. It is true that most boards self moderate because of the member-base that a cigar board tends to get. It tends to be more mature, etc. However, the trash talking here is strictly personal. Maybe hex can create a "smack talk" forum for you guys to go in and bash each other. The problem I have is when it carries into and eventually takes over the substance of the board. At that point, I say delete and continue to delete until the problem goes away.

one good thing to the come from all this is that we have several new members who appear to be veteran BOTLs. Let's hope they all stick around and contribute.

[CoventryCat86]

I agree and disagree. I am a vet of many boards including CA, CW, cigarbid, and now this one. It is true that most boards self moderate because of the member-base that a cigar board tends to get. It tends to be more mature, etc. However, the trash talking here is strictly personal. Maybe hex can create a "smack talk" forum for you guys to go in and bash each other. The problem I have is when it carries into and eventually takes over the substance of the board. At that point, I say delete and continue to delete until the problem goes away.

one good thing to the come from all this is that we have several new members who appear to be veteran BOTLs. Let's hope they all stick around and contribute.

Uhhhh, what you perceive as "trash talking" is relevant criticism of how Oblik handles his job as a moderator and the generally $hitty tone and complete lack of respect he demonstrates when he posts on top of the fact that he appears to have anger management and superiority complex issues.

ggiese and I have taken exception with roham making false accusations and engaging in "slander" as he states it. This is far from "personal" as you stated, it's a matter of poor behavior on their part and it should be discussed in the OPEN in posts on the board rather that "whispered" in PM's as suggested by some.

How is this "taking over the substance of the board"? you completely lost me on that one......

Are you also condoning the deletion of posts? If so you shouldn't be a "moderator" either. I will say it once again:

POSTS SHOULD NOT BE DELETED OR ALTERED BY A MODERATOR

unless they violate the law or some board policy. All of the posts that have been deleted by Oblik haven't even come close to that. He abused his mod privileges and deleted posts because he simply didn't like them.

[ggiese]

I agree and disagree. I am a vet of many boards including CA, CW, cigarbid, and now this one. It is true that most boards self moderate because of the member-base that a cigar board tends to get. It tends to be more mature, etc. However, the trash talking here is strictly personal. Maybe hex can create a "smack talk" forum for you guys to go in and bash each other. The problem I have is when it carries into and eventually takes over the substance of the board. At that point, I say delete and continue to delete until the problem goes away.

one good thing to the come from all this is that we have several new members who appear to be veteran BOTLs. Let's hope they all stick around and contribute.

That shocks me - you seem quite a bit more intelligent than that...

I don't know that any of those boards do as you suggest - create a separate "smack talk" thread, and delete, delete, delete until the problem goes away. I'm aware of one board that decided to do that as a policy - delete, delete, delete - ban, go private, etc - now it's on the verge of going into oblivion...

I think your idea is absolutely insane!!! What the heck will that accomplish, other than causing severe anger and resentment... Do you disagree with the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis when he said , "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants." ? I personally live by and believe we should heed those words

[Roham]

Just for arguments sake.... Moheganson and bkcloud are the fourth and fifth people I was talking about.... The only reason I say they are your buddIES is because you all showed up within a week of each other and started disrupting this board.... All save BKcloud, but he says he knows you too. Alls I know is I use to enjoy this site, and these past few days have not been enjoyable to say the least...

[smokeyJoe]

This is a Internet (Cigar) CHAT ROOM Not some third world country struggle for power !!!
Let's light up and chill out.

P.S. If you don't like the way this site is run, you have the Freedom to go somewhere else...
Start your own if you like.......

[cockyhoskins]

This is a Internet (Cigar) CHAT ROOM Not some third world country struggle for power !!!
Let's light up and chill out.

P.S. If you don't like the way this site is run, you have the Freedom to go somewhere else...
Start your own if you like.......

That's exactly what I meant. There is no reason to air disagreements, etc.

I don't know how much simpler to say this: If you don't like participating on this board, then leave. If you stay, let's talk cigars. If you don't, we will still talk cigars.

These board wars are what's insane. This is hex's site. He shouldn't have to put up with it and if he wants to ban every damn one of us, including me, then do so. He wants to talk cigars; I want to talk cigars. None of us want to talk about this load.

[cockyhoskins]

B]POSTS SHOULD NOT BE DELETED OR ALTERED BY A MODERATOR[/B]

unless they violate the law or some board policy. All of the posts that have been deleted by Oblik haven't even come close to that. He abused his mod privileges and deleted posts because he simply didn't like them.

You speak as though you have a right to post on hex's board. He can delete whatever he wants because it is his board and your privilege to post here.

[cockyhoskins]

I think your idea is absolutely insane!!! What the heck will that accomplish, other than causing severe anger and resentment... Do you disagree with the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis when he said , "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants." ? I personally live by and believe we should heed those words

Quoting Brandeis is a little over the top. It makes me think of Learned Hand when he said:

"The mid-day sun is too much for most eyes; one is dazzled even with its reflection. Be careful that too broad and high an aim does not paralyze your effort and clog your springs of action."

Or better yet, he said: "No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture."

My point is simply: Lighten up and let's talk about cigars.

[ggiese]

Quoting Brandeis is a little over the top. It makes me think of Learned Hand when he said:

"The mid-day sun is too much for most eyes; one is dazzled even with its reflection. Be careful that too broad and high an aim does not paralyze your effort and clog your springs of action."

Or better yet, he said: "No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture."

My point is simply: Lighten up and let's talk about cigars.

Aside from the few posts in here and a couple of other thread, I think you can see we ARE talking about cigars - just not all the time (for example, the thread you're involved in about the NFL draft). I'm sure at some point you'll be faced with political discussions between members - it's bound to happen. You want to see feathers fly?

I agree: "No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture." So in response to your first quote: Please don't paint this dispute into an all consuming, destructive war - that's not what it is. It's a disagreement, pure and simple, trying to bring ONE circumstance to light. It's never been a broad attack on this board. I'm not some kind of enforcer, who doesn't enjoy cigars, coming in here to wreak havoc. Please don't label me as such. It hurts my feelings

And we are not focusing on disrupting the board as Roham would suggest. I know a lot of people on other boards - and they know me. So they show up here and say "hi"? Does that now mean they mean harm? You don't know BKcloud - are you prejudiced? You certainly are prejudging him. You should get to know him - he's really a great guy!!! He's fairly new at cigars, but has the same passion for them as you do.

I've spoken my peace an some issues, so I can see where you might be a little irritated by my comments if you don't necessarily agree with them. But that doesn't make me a bad person, does it? A number of you disagreed with me, and I don't view you as a bad people.

So what should we do Cocky? Delete, Delete, Delete, ban, lock down, make the board private? Lock me out - shut the site down - become paranoid - "there's bad people on the internet that will come in here and say bad things". C'mon - you seem a bit wiser then that. You know what the end result of that would be... I don't need to tell you.

[ggiese]

Just for arguments sake.... Moheganson and bkcloud are the fourth and fifth people I was talking about.... The only reason I say they are your buddIES is because you all showed up within a week of each other and started disrupting this board.... All save BKcloud, but he says he knows you too. Alls I know is I use to enjoy this site, and these past few days have not been enjoyable to say the least...

By the way - when you made your initial post about 5 of us coming over here, BKcloud hadn't even signed up yet... I think you're trying to paint a picture here that's not quite accurate to support your position of a bunch of bad people coming in here to destroy this happy home. Not my intent, not CoventryCat's, nor Moheganson's either - and I can tell you, not BKcloud's either. Nor Leebo (I guess you'd call him the 6th), or AlexGTP (the 7th) - they're new and said "hi" too.

And I agree with you Roham - conflict is not enjoyable. But, hopefully, it is shortlived - as long as it is let to run its course. Patience is the key here - those involved will resolve their differences one way or the other. And through the process we will all learn something - whether it's trading etiquette, handling conflict, how to spot fake cigars - or more importantly, who we are as INDIVIDUALS. You may not like what I say, but I'm sure you will come to appreciate who I am. Conversely, I do not like all you say, but I will come to appreciate who you are. Life would be boring if we were all exactly alike...

[cockyhoskins]

ggiese, I accept your argument. Now, give me areview of what you smoked last night

[CoventryCat86]

You speak as though you have a right to post on hex's board. He can delete whatever he wants because it is his board and your privilege to post here.

hex1848 is not deleteing posts, Oblik is. This is NOT Oblik's board and neither he nor you should delete other member's posts.

My guess is that hex1848 does not condone deleting posts. Face is cocky, Oblik is wrong for engaging in such rude behavior and it should stop immediately.

And yes cocky, hex can do whatever he want's because it's his board. Well, it's not YOUR board nor is it Oblik's board either.

It's story time cocky so sit back and read on (this was posted on CigarPass in a thread where SFG75 ultimately wound up being banned from CigarPass because of his $hitty attitude and smart mouthed comments):

When I was 10 I had a fort in my backyard. When a fella has a fort, a club is soon to follow; I got myself a club. Now, as I was one of the club's founders, I had the jurisdiction to kick people out of the club without provocation. Of course, I eventually exercised my right until I was the only one in my club... and I like it that way tongue.gif
Time passed and somehow I had worked my way through to high school where the club of choice was the Key Club. Unfortunately, the Key Club had been firmly established long before I got there and so I had to suck up to those who had sucked up before me. I had to mind myself and act like somebody. I hated the thought that I could be banned - to suffer the same humilation as the many (2, maybe 3) who I had banned from my fort years before. Soon I was a senior and vp of the K.Club. The procedures of banning a person wasn't as simple as I thought - I mean, you couldn't just snap your fingers and he was gone - but neverless quite doable. You would simply tell the other seniors that you wanted him banned, they wouldn't care, and a lie would be concocted to present to the school's review board. Any senior could ban any underclassman for any (or no) reason. Those were our (unofficial) rules.
In college the clubs were, of course, fraternities - and the same pattern continues. Except here, the upperclassmen not only have the authority to ban (or, blackball, as was the jargon of fraternity choice) but could also beat the sh!t out of you during commercials. As a pledge, it was now especially necessary to swallow your pride, or the one-way sign that had always done a fine job of directing your a$$ traffic would be turned to face the opposite way. Years later, as a senior I would try to do a thing that, while so simple before, was now a complete pain in the ass: ban a jackass member. He was a loud-mouth sophomore and a social retard. He made the whole fraternity look bad. The problem was, he had done nothing illegal... As it happens, you can't ban a member - only a pledge - because he has paid the fraternity dues: about $3,000 a semester. So, how did we get rid of him? We just kept telling him that he's a dumb-as$, relentlessly, until he quit (or "went inactive", as it was called).

END OF STORY, now back to my post......

Back a few months ago, there was a lame-assed site run by a couple of children in California called "LetsTalkCigars." The site owner, a jerkoff named "Zac" spammed a bunch of other cigar sites (including this one) in order to get people to join his site. He did this at the suggestion of another clown on that site who was trying to push his junk Panamanian cigars. The Panamanian cigar clown had a reputation of saying "I'll send you some cigars" and he seldom if ever did. So Zac, being the immature sucker that he is, went around spamming other cigar sites. This pissed some people off. Many members from other sites went over to LTC and voiced their concerns. Well guess freakin' WHO was a "moderator" over there? None other that Oblik and he was rude and nasty to people, he altered and deleted other member's posts, was instrumental in getting people banned and so forth and so on, the same crap he's pulling or trying to pull here.

What made matters worse was the site owner Zac, condoned this nonsense AND made two other jerkoffs moderators. Well between Oblik, SFG75, Purobrat, Zac, Corey and larrynj (a reject from Herfer's Paradise) LetsTalkCigars imploded upon itself in a matter of two months.

Cocky, you'd be wise to study threads like these rather than bitching about them or thinking you know everything because you don't.

And yes cocky, hex can do whatever he wants, he can follow Zac's lead and let a loose cannon like Oblik ruin his site or he can sit back and let civil discussions run their course and people draw their own conclusions about other members based on their posts.

I've noticed that Oblik's been awfully quiet lately, I wonder why?

[CoventryCat86]

Just for arguments sake.... Moheganson and bkcloud are the fourth and fifth people I was talking about.... The only reason I say they are your buddIES is because you all showed up within a week of each other and started disrupting this board.... All save BKcloud, but he says he knows you too. Alls I know is I use to enjoy this site, and these past few days have not been enjoyable to say the least...

roham, once again you are posting slander. blkcloud had not signed up when you posted your slander and PLEASE tell us all exatcly which FIVE people who signed up AFTER ggiese have been "disrupting this board?

I really think you should refrain from posting further slander.

[ggiese]

That's exactly what I meant. There is no reason to air disagreements, etc.

I don't know how much simpler to say this: If you don't like participating on this board, then leave. If you stay, let's talk cigars. If you don't, we will still talk cigars.

These board wars are what's insane. This is hex's site. He shouldn't have to put up with it and if he wants to ban every damn one of us, including me, then do so. He wants to talk cigars; I want to talk cigars. None of us want to talk about this load.

You don't want to talk about bad cigar trading? That seems to me to be pertinent information for a cigar board. It appears some are planning box passes in the near future... So then it's okay to put and take fake cigars - valuing them as originals? Would you buy a Rolex off eBay?

Most of the cigar box passes I've been involved in have had the caveat "equal puts and takes". You wanna see someone get angry, do it otherwise. There's a board I've been involved in for quite a while that just did a box pass that was an absolute joke. One of the members saw nothing wrong with taking out three limited edition, super-premium smokes (about $30 a piece), and replace them with common smokes ($5 - 8). I'd like to do that - that would be great!!! I believe the person did it out of ignorance not knowing the real value of the cigars. If I did that, it would be theft - because I KNOW better (having learned from doing box passes with others). Great for a newb to do that - not good for a vet to do that... What separates me from a newb in that - KNOWLEDGE, EXPERIENCE, UNDERSTANDING and most of all TRUST!!! But then again, isn't that what this and other boards are about? Teaching and learning etiquette?

One of the valuable lessons I've learned on other boards (and I think you can appreciate this, Cocky) is the concept "Pay it Forward". I've learned this through words and actions. If I feel the need, I send out a group of smokes to a newb so they can sample some nice smokes. That is part of the BOTL (Brotherhood of the Leaf) we are all a member of. I have been gifted with some INCREDIBLE cigars (such as the nice box that came yesterday containing an Opus X Churchill, Diamond Crown Maximus Double Cornona, Trinidad Robusto and a Joya de Nicaragua Antano I've been dying to try). Not because I traded - not because I deserved it - just because another member decided to "Pay it Forward". I sent out two bombs a few weeks ago containing about 30 cigars. If the mood hit me, I'd send smokes to someone here as well. As a matter of fact, I see the potential for some deserving brothers (newbs) on this board who are in definite need of broadening their tastes. (Acid cigars, C'MON!!!)

You want to talk about cigars - talk about cigars. Talk about ALL aspects of cigars. If you are planning on doing any trades in here, talk about expectations. Talk about fairness. Talk about equal puts and takes. Do it in a respectful way, but don't shy away from it because it may not be nice. That's how a board becomes successful, and members get along.

[ggiese]

BTW- Roham - me and a few of my friends have come to take care of business here...

[ggiese]

ggiese, I accept your argument. Now, give me areview of what you smoked last night

Sorry, bro - worked from 9 am until 11 pm yesterday - I didn't get a smoke in... But I plan to do it up right this weekend!!!

I'll let you know!!!

Now I gotta go to the humi - decisions, decisions!!!

[CoventryCat86]

Would you buy a Rolex off eBay?

HEY you makin' fun of me 'cause I bought my Rolex off of eBay?

You are a mean, mean man George

I'm gonna go lie on the couch and sulk all day AFTER I pick up my Rolex from the jeweler's from being serviced AND getting the crystal repaired that I smashed.

[kevin7]

I see my friends CoventryCat86 and ggiese are here along with others. Good to see you guys again