Cubans

[basil]

Oh, Ted... Linky...

Fascinating material - thanks for link.

This is what I thought, that presently-used seed often has a Cuban pedigree. The guy taking credit for the development of these seeds says:

"My specialty was the development and improvement of genetically superior seed strains . . ."

and:

"During my consulting career, I collected a cache of genetically pure seeds ... 47 varieties in all. These seeds are the foundation for our present crops."

- John Vogel

What is troubling about this site though is using language designed to mislead the reader into thinking that their crop seed is actually pre-embargo.

Statements like:

"These almost-forgotten pre-Castro seeds exist nowhere else in the world."

and,

"Microphotograph of two Pinar del Rio seeds, before germination ... 16,000 seeds per gram, with 97% germination." (97% is agriculture industry standard and I'll bet you a Lusitania Vogel's crop seeds are not 60 years old),

made on the web site, lead the reader to believe that these seeds are some kind of holy grail, and that authentic Cuban cigars and/or something that duplicates the Cuban taste can somehow be produced from these seeds.

What tells me Vogel is selling snake oil is that he discounts virtually all other factors - geographic, soil, curing, harvest cycle, you name it, and says that seed/genetics is all. It would be wrong-headed for anyone to say this. Vogel, as an agronomist, is telling a bald-faced lie.

While I have no reason to doubt that a lot of time and energy went into r&d, producing and developing the cigars sold on this site, the bottom line is that all this site is intended to do is sell cigars, which are Costa Rican cigars, and not Cuban, regardless of where the seed stock came from 6 decades ago.

caveat emptor

[nhcigarfan]

Anyone ever tried one of these high priced sticks?

[bigwhiteash]

I would imagine, (not stating a fact), that an actual CIGAR, gets very little of its taste from the SEED! Sure, seeds will pass on genetic traits like hardiness, plant size, etc.. but we all know that even tobacco grown in the same soil, from the same harvest, can taste dramatically different, depending on how it's cured, fermented, aged, and even rolled!

My thoughts, anyway

[ggiese]

I think what is fascinating about that link is the encapsulated discussion around the Cuban cigar industry, post Castro. The post-Castro Cuban government nearly destroyed the Cuban cigar business - but later recognized their mistake and have been trying to re-establish the industry dominance they once had.

Those that have sampled Cuban cigars know the good and bad. Plugged cigars - "sick" period (due to lack of full aging), etc. Cuba has a history of issues with quality of their cigars, no doubt. And in that void (largely due to the mass exodus of master blenders and rollers) the NC market has made significant strides.

"Piloto Cubano", "Cuban Seed", etc. is a means of marketing cigars that one would fondly associate with Cuban cigars. While the specific strain of tobacco plant plays into the overall quality of the end product - one thing is certain. That same plant, regardless of its origin or strain - planted in different regions (including different areas within Cuba) - has a characteristically different flavor due to the soil and growing conditions. While "Cuban Seed" plants are good - where they are grown is equally (if not more) important. Much like wine making grapes.

There is little doubt - Cuban tobacco has a flavor profile that is all it's own. Certainly inexperienced Cuban cigars smokers are drawn by the mystique of sampling the "forbidden fruit" - but many continue to seek them out because of the flavor (that is - as long as the first Cubans they smoked were not counterfeit ).

Personally - there are a number of NC cigars I enjoy much better than most Cuban cigars. And I've been stunned by some Cuban cigars other seem to dismiss (i.e. - not the usual fare of Montecristo #2's, Koh-Hee-Bah's, Partagas or RyJ). Unlike others, though - I do not waste my time smoking cigars for the simple necessity of wanting to smoke SOMETHING. Just as I do not drink Boone's Farm wine because I want to drink...

Bottom line - smoke what you enjoy - enjoy what you smoke.

And try as you might to believe otherwise - only small amounts of Cuban tobacco makes it out of the country for export elsewhere. Think about it - Cuba is having a heck of a time keeping up with demand for their finished cigars - It's completely unimaginable it's more lucrative for them to export the unrolled tobacco... The Cuban tobacco industry has always used the best tobacco for its own finished products - leaving literally an export of scrap and waste.

[basil]

I think what is fascinating about that link is the encapsulated discussion around the Cuban cigar industry, post Castro. The post-Castro Cuban government nearly destroyed the Cuban cigar business - but later recognized their mistake and have been trying to re-establish the industry dominance they once had.

Yeah - pretty amazing that he would pretty much torpedo one of the more important industries in his country.

[cigar no baka]

I avoid anything that is "Cuban seed" for the most part. I have smoked the Camacho Libertys the last few years, and while they were excellent cigars, I doubt it anything to do with pre-embargo tobacco, if it truly contains pre-embargo tobacco.

The 2004, 2005 and 2006 were great. But not the 2007. Maybe they ran out of that pre-embargo tobacco eh?

[rsanz]

I don't think Cuba sells their tobacco, they have a limited production and have a hard enough time meeting demands. Sometimes even their own production is not up to "Cuban" expectations.

The Cuban cigars are better. Granted I've had good Nic or Honduran cigars, they aren't better. I'll take a RASCC, Monte #4, Siglo IV, VI, Mag 46, Partagas SDC #3, etc over any non Cuban cigar you can name, period.

Now I guess the Cubans do sell seeds to other countries, as some of the Tatuajes are Cuban seed. And they are pretty dang good cigars. Better than a #4? Not in my opinion. Better than a Cohiba Siglo VI? But they are good cigars. At their price? No.

A certain don gabriel sells their own brand of cigar which they say contains cuban filler/binder and (IIRC) Honduran wrapper. I've had a few and, while interesting, they just don't have the Cuban taste profile I've come to expect. Either it's pretty low grade tobacco or the wrapper really is what constitutes most of the flavour.

Oh and .net

One other thing, isn't most (if not all) tobacco derived from Cuban seed (originally)?

[nhcigarfan]

I think you and ggiese are right. Any tobacco that makes it out is probably the crap.

Considering some of the cuban low end brands that are mixed filler, the stuff shipped out, unless it fetches a pretty price, is probably junk.

[ggiese]

One other thing, isn't most (if not all) tobacco derived from Cuban seed (originally)?

That's a good point...

[ggiese]

I think you and ggiese are right. Any tobacco that makes it out is probably the crap.

Considering some of the cuban low end brands that are mixed filler, the stuff shipped out, unless it fetches a pretty price, is probably junk.

I like some of that low-end brand mixed filler machine made Cuban cigars (i.e. Quintero Brevas) with age... Blows away similarly price NC stuff that's available at the gas stations...

[nhcigarfan]

Yep, but my last batch of JLP's cazadores where all crap. Super tight roll and the wrappers would never burn on any of them.

My brevas have been good though.

That being said, I'd buy a box of JdN Cele. consouls (which run in the 40 dollar range) over either JLP or bevas

[Corvin]

Just wondering whats so damn special about cubans? Ive never smoked one but what is it about them that people love so much? Is it the simple fact that we cant legally have them, thus creating a sort of"mystique" about them, or are they simply better cigars do to conditions in cuba? It seems that if I mention that I smoke cigars to someone they always reply with something about cubans. Just want to know whats so special about them.

I've had a handful of Cubans. Some I liked, some I didn't. Just like the handful of Dominican or Honduran Puros that I've had.

One thing that I'd really like to try would be a pre-embargo Cuban, especially after reading the history of cigars that was linked above. Are those legal in the US (I'm just currious, since I'm in Canada and Cuban isn't a four letter word here.)?

Does anyone know where I might acquire one?

[drew_goring]

I've had a handful of Cubans. Some I liked, some I didn't. Just like the handful of Dominican or Honduran Puros that I've had.

One thing that I'd really like to try would be a pre-embargo Cuban, especially after reading the history of cigars that was linked above. Are those legal in the US (I'm just currious, since I'm in Canada and Cuban isn't a four letter word here.)?

Does anyone know where I might acquire one?

I am not sure on the specifics, but I am pretty sure Christie's auctions cigars (maybe once a year?).

Other than that, you may have to find a specialty shop. Maybe Dunhill in London or a vendor has them around. Be prepared to pay the price though.

Pre-embargo Cubans really don't have a market in Canada because after almost 50 years, they are usually dried out turds. There isn't any sort of mystique here.

[ggiese]

One thing that I'd really like to try would be a pre-embargo Cuban, especially after reading the history of cigars that was linked above. Are those legal in the US (I'm just currious, since I'm in Canada and Cuban isn't a four letter word here.)?

Does anyone know where I might acquire one?

Why...

Find something in the '98 range. I've had VERY few that were bad (I especially like the '98 Trinidad Fundadore's)...

[rsanz]

Yep, but my last batch of JLP's cazadores where all crap. Super tight roll and the wrappers would never burn on any of them.

My brevas have been good though.

That being said, I'd buy a box of JdN Cele. consouls (which run in the 40 dollar range) over either JLP or bevas

I've had mixed quality JLP Cremas and pretty bad drawing Cazadores in the past, but my last 5 boxes of JLP Cremas have been excellent. I haven't given the Cazadores a 2nd chance.

JLP Cremas are by far my favourite cigar under US$2.00 (NZ$2.30 to be precise).

[Runswithscissors]

I've had a handful of Cubans. Some I liked, some I didn't. Just like the handful of Dominican or Honduran Puros that I've had.

One thing that I'd really like to try would be a pre-embargo Cuban, especially after reading the history of cigars that was linked above. Are those legal in the US (I'm just currious, since I'm in Canada and Cuban isn't a four letter word here.)?

Does anyone know where I might acquire one?

Call Corona Cigar Company in Orlando Florida. They have quite a few pre-embargo's but I recall that they range from near $200 to over $400 per stick. Here's a link to the website:
http://www.coronacigar.com/index.asp

Good luck.

[cls515]

A certain don gabriel sells their own brand of cigar which they say contains cuban filler/binder and (IIRC) Honduran wrapper. I've had a few and, while interesting, they just don't have the Cuban taste profile I've come to expect. Either it's pretty low grade tobacco or the wrapper really is what constitutes most of the flavour.

Oh and .net

One other thing, isn't most (if not all) tobacco derived from Cuban seed (originally)?

You are correct about Don Gabriel. I was referring to the big boys like Fuente, Ashton, Padron, etc. Don Gabriel cigars with Cuban tobacco is not something you'd expect to find on an American tobacco store shelf.

[BigMacFU]

Wrappers do constitute the majority of your flavor.

As for pre-embargo, don't waste any money, even if they can authenticate them, the shelf life of a cigar is about 50 years. It'd be like paying for the 2000 dollar bottle of 1940's burgundy just to say you have the 1940's burgundy, it's content is really more like vinegar than alcohol at this point, but hey, it's still a 1940's burgundy. Similarly with a cigar, even if kept in prime condition, tobacco ages, but only to a point, which is approximately 50 years. The longer it ages though, the less flavor it will have as the oils evaporate. Which means unless these pre-embargos were the strongest cigars ever produced, they'll be like smoking macanudos by this century easily.

As for the more common "pre-embargo" cigars, the pinars (typically 8-12 a stick) I just don't buy the story of "we found a stash of tobacco in a warehouse after 40 years." Even if true, who's to guarantee the tobacco was kept in ideal conditions all that time, and even if it was, the above problem occurs. Finally, to claim that it is a pre-embargo cuban, legally they'd only have to have less than one percent of the cigars total make up actually from pre-embargo leaf in order to keep the claim. It's not false advertising if some part of it is pre-embargo leaf.

So, nobody should ever waste their time with these.

[cigar no baka]

Wrappers do constitute the majority of your flavor.

As for pre-embargo, don't waste any money, even if they can authenticate them, the shelf life of a cigar is about 50 years. It'd be like paying for the 2000 dollar bottle of 1940's burgundy just to say you have the 1940's burgundy, it's content is really more like vinegar than alcohol at this point, but hey, it's still a 1940's burgundy. Similarly with a cigar, even if kept in prime condition, tobacco ages, but only to a point, which is approximately 50 years. The longer it ages though, the less flavor it will have as the oils evaporate. Which means unless these pre-embargos were the strongest cigars ever produced, they'll be like smoking macanudos by this century easily.

As for the more common "pre-embargo" cigars, the pinars (typically 8-12 a stick) I just don't buy the story of "we found a stash of tobacco in a warehouse after 40 years." Even if true, who's to guarantee the tobacco was kept in ideal conditions all that time, and even if it was, the above problem occurs. Finally, to claim that it is a pre-embargo cuban, legally they'd only have to have less than one percent of the cigars total make up actually from pre-embargo leaf in order to keep the claim. It's not false advertising if some part of it is pre-embargo leaf.

So, nobody should ever waste their time with these.

Very well put!!!!

[Corvin]

Wrappers do constitute the majority of your flavor.

As for pre-embargo, don't waste any money, even if they can authenticate them, the shelf life of a cigar is about 50 years. It'd be like paying for the 2000 dollar bottle of 1940's burgundy just to say you have the 1940's burgundy, it's content is really more like vinegar than alcohol at this point, but hey, it's still a 1940's burgundy. Similarly with a cigar, even if kept in prime condition, tobacco ages, but only to a point, which is approximately 50 years. The longer it ages though, the less flavor it will have as the oils evaporate. Which means unless these pre-embargos were the strongest cigars ever produced, they'll be like smoking macanudos by this century easily.

As for the more common "pre-embargo" cigars, the pinars (typically 8-12 a stick) I just don't buy the story of "we found a stash of tobacco in a warehouse after 40 years." Even if true, who's to guarantee the tobacco was kept in ideal conditions all that time, and even if it was, the above problem occurs. Finally, to claim that it is a pre-embargo cuban, legally they'd only have to have less than one percent of the cigars total make up actually from pre-embargo leaf in order to keep the claim. It's not false advertising if some part of it is pre-embargo leaf.

So, nobody should ever waste their time with these.

Thanks for the info, I didn't realize that they only had to have 1% to make the claim.

I didn't realize that cigars only had a 50 year shelf life either. Hopefully the "It's a girl" AFs that I've got will still be ok when my daughter turns 18 in 2025.