New here-Cuban ?'s

[CoventryCat86]

Oh, and when I was mowing the lawn, I thought of an example that hits closer to home for me, and maybe is a good comparison. Craftsman wrenches vs. Snap-on wrenches.

Both are forged steel with chrome finish. Both have lifetime guarantees, but a Craftsman is significantly less than the Snap-on. Why is this?

They both will tighten, or loosen nuts / bolts. This is not subjective, so why is Snap-on or Matco the "professionals" choice over the weekend warrior Craftsman?

If you're a professional mechanic like my brother is, there is a WORLD of difference between Crafstman garbage and Snap-On tools. I don't have enough time or space here to give you the many examples I know about but trust me, there IS a huge difference but I will give you a couple:

For instance, a Craftsman wrench will strip off the corners of a stove bolt that is frozen where as a Snap-On socket or combination wrench almost never will. As a matter of fact, I've personally been in situations where a friend rounded the corners of a bold with his cheap tools (usually Cratfsman) and when I put my Snap-On wrench on the bolt, it removed it with relative ease. Another example, Craftsman Philips screwdrivers are notorious for ruining the heads of troublesome screws and if you then use a Snap-On Philips head screw driver you can remove the screw that you thought was ruined.

Sure, Craftsman garbage is "lifetime guarantee" but what the hell good is that if the damn things keep breaking on you whereas Snap-On tools won't in the same situations? When you're trying to disassemble an engine on a Saturday night, it's not like the local Sears stores are open 24/7 to replace your broken tools and you can't finish the project whereas if you were working with Snap-On tools in the same situation, odds are very good to excellent they never would have broken in the first place. I can't tell you how many times I had to make good on the Craftsman guarantee only to have them keep breaking. It's a rare occasion I have to make good on a broken Snap-On tool. I've slowly weeded out all the Craftsman garbage from my tool boxes and I'm a much happier person for it.

My brother is pretty much a "professional" and I'm more the "weekend warrior" guy with tools and I avoid Craftsman, Chinese and Taiwan tools whenever possible, it's just not worth it no matter how "inexpensive" they are compared to real tools. Again, there is a HUGE difference and the additional cost is well worth it. eBay is an excellent source for buying Snap-On tools for less than full retail AND you can sell your Craftsman stuff there too in order to get rid of it. Who cares if you only get ten to twenty cents on the dollar, at least you've flushed the turds out of your tool box.

Where did Craig go, I thought he was going to finish his thought "over the weekend" (last weekend that was.......)

[badwhale]

Bill, STFU.

Will

[ggiese]

Bill, STFU.

Will

That's one way to attempt to end an argument!

[CoventryCat86]

That's one way to attempt to end an argument!

He asked a question and I gave him the answer. He's wrong and knows I'm right. I guess he just don't take to well to being disagreed with.

I'm still wondering what happened to craig.

[badwhale]

Yea, "STFU" was pretty brash. I apologize.

But no, Bill, you're not right.

The question was not whether Snap-on is superior to Craftsman. I'm pretty sure I recognized that in my original question.

The question is IS Snap-on THAT superior that it commands prices 5-6 or more times expensive? Arguing that over the years, you've tracked down second hand Snap-on through eBay, auctions etc. is not even valid. That actually supports my argument that you recognize that new retail prices of Snap-on is outrageous.

They are better tools. More ergonomic, the ratchets offer "in between" ratchet locations which can be helpful. Smoother action. But are they THAT much better? What are you paying for? Does a 3/8" Snap-on ratchet cost $75 dollars more to produce? Does the Padron 80th $26 more to produce? Does an Audi cost $30k more to produce than a Passat?

I have a lot of Craftsman, some combo wrenches that my grandfather used "professionally" in their small engine repair shop in Jersey. They're at least 70yrs old. I have not experienced and epidemic of nut / bolt head rounding that you speak of. Usually if that happens, I'm either using the wrong tool, or the bolt is in such a shitty condition NO tool is going to get it to come out nicely. Also, if I anticipate trouble, I go with a 6 point socket, rather than a round prone 12point. Also, if you're chronically breaking tools you're probably using the wrong tool to begin with. I've taken some Craftsman stuff back, but I can probably count on one hand to occasions. Once, I found a Craftsman ratchet while doing a bridge inspection, and the ratchet guts were gone, and the finish rusted. I went and got a new one. (That doesn't count)


Will

[CoventryCat86]

Yea, "STFU" was pretty brash. I apologize.

But no, Bill, you're not right.

The question was not whether Snap-on is superior to Craftsman. I'm pretty sure I recognized that in my original question.

The question is IS Snap-on THAT superior that it commands prices 5-6 or more times expensive? Arguing that over the years, you've tracked down second hand Snap-on through eBay, auctions etc. is not even valid. That actually supports my argument that you recognize that new retail prices of Snap-on is outrageous.

They are better tools. More ergonomic, the ratchets offer "in between" ratchet locations which can be helpful. Smoother action. But are they THAT much better? What are you paying for? Does a 3/8" Snap-on ratchet cost $75 dollars more to produce? Does the Padron 80th $26 more to produce? Does an Audi cost $30k more to produce than a Passat?

I have a lot of Craftsman, some combo wrenches that my grandfather used "professionally" in their small engine repair shop in Jersey. They're at least 70yrs old. I have not experienced and epidemic of nut / bolt head rounding that you speak of. Usually if that happens, I'm either using the wrong tool, or the bolt is in such a shitty condition NO tool is going to get it to come out nicely. Also, if I anticipate trouble, I go with a 6 point socket, rather than a round prone 12point. Also, if you're chronically breaking tools you're probably using the wrong tool to begin with. I've taken some Craftsman stuff back, but I can probably count on one hand to occasions. Once, I found a Craftsman ratchet while doing a bridge inspection, and the ratchet guts were gone, and the finish rusted. I went and got a new one. (That doesn't count)


Will

Uhh, "prices 5-6 or more times expensive" is where you're letting your imagination run wild again...... Can you find me a Craftsman tool where the Snap-On equivalent is "5-6 times" more expensive? If you can, please let me know because I think you're full-o-crap on that one.

And I NEVER said this:

"Arguing that over the years, you've tracked down second hand Snap-on through eBay, auctions etc. is not even valid."

Did I ever say "second hand" here, no I did not so don't claim I said things that I didn't, okay?

And no, I'm not "using the wrong tool to begin with" Craftsman sockets suck and break far more often than Snap-On sockets and their shitty screwdrivers break too, much more so than real tools like Snap-On. In my experience and years of using tools for what I use them for, it's worth the extra money for Snap-On tools over Craftsman. I've returned far more Craftsman tools than Snap-On so much so that it was too aggravating and too inconvenient for me so for the most part, I stopped using them. I think if you used your tools more often, you'd reach the same conclusion that I and many others have.

[ashauler]

Where did Craig go, I thought he was going to finish his thought "over the weekend" (last weekend that was.......)

You obviously missed the "beaten to death" disclaimer in Craig's post. This thread for sure qualifies.

[craig]

Running around with work - haven't forgotten, will eventually reply ... and yes, George is right, but he also took took my statements out of context. However, I may not have given sufficient context .

As for Snap-on vs. Sears, I'll cover that too.

... gotta go, back in a few weeks.

[CoventryCat86]

You obviously missed the "beaten to death" disclaimer in Craig's post. This thread for sure qualifies.

No, I didn't miss it, there were hardly any posts after his last one so I don't believe that is "beaten to death."

[cinda]

you obviously missed the "beaten to death" disclaimer in craig's post. This thread for sure qualifies.

rotflmao!

[cinda]

I miss this thread entirely and I just spent some time reading though this and found some very interesting banter. I think KB's post had a lot of truth to it and put things into perspective. However I went down stairs and I ask my husband snap on or craftsmen which is better? He said what are you doing..... it makes all the difference in the world. He said for working on engines it's snap on. Last longer, breaks less and they have very good costumer service. You do pay for that service. He said you could compare them to Avon they come to the buyer and you have that personal connection with the distributor "Old school" However, for what I do working with wood and repairing things I'll go with craftsman tools. It's what my dad used it's what I grew up with it's tradition "Oh and never buy tools from home cheap O (Not kidding that what he said) He also said but I do look for both kinds of hand tools at yard sales. If its cheap enough I buy it, it happens to break, then I get a new one and at my next sale I'll sell it for 1/2 what a new one cost at the store. Anyhow I thought it was pretty funny it's like he had read this thread.

[badwhale]

I've slowly weeded out all the Craftsman garbage from my tool boxes and I'm a much happier person for it.

eBay is an excellent source for buying Snap-On tools for less than full retail AND you can sell your Craftsman stuff there too in order to get rid of it. Who cares if you only get ten to twenty cents on the dollar, at least you've flushed the turds out of your tool box.

Again, "slowly" means to me, once convinced you didn't just rush out and replace all your tools with Snap-On. IF snap-on tools were even twice as expensive as Craftsman, I too would replace them.

An example? I have a black roll cab with side cabinet, intermediate cabinet & tool chest. From Craftsman, it was around 1200 dollars. I don't have a Snap-On truck in front of me, nor their mysterious price catalog, but a friend who does bodywork has a Snap-On roll cab of similar volume that was around 10k.

Ya know, just saying the same thing again doesn't reinforce your argument, you are just repeating yourself.

...yeah, I need to "use my tools more"...

ETA: It's an intermediate drawer, not "cabinet"

[badwhale]

How do you know Craftsman sockets suck, and break all the time if you've replaced them?

I'll give you the screwdriver example.

[badwhale]

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog

http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-1...&blockType=L10

149.95/38.99 = 3.8 times more expensive. Ok, not quite 5-6 times as expensive, but the tool box example exceeds the 5-6 times more expensive.

Also, I tried to keep the ratchet example "apples to apples" meaning polished chrome. If you just went with the plain forged teardrop craftstman: http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-1...8&blockType=L8

then you're at 149.95/22.99 = 6.5 times more expensive.

ETA:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog

http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-1...1&blockType=L1

423.00/29.99 = 14.1 times more expensive. Yes, yes, before your wisely point it out, the Snappy set has 2, count 'em 2 MORE SOCKETS!!!

[ggiese]

I'm trying really hard to compare the Craftsman to the Snap On tools - but I can't get them to be apples to apples...

For starters - Craftsman sure is thin on details. Snap On sure does have quite a bit more information about their tools...

Craftsman 1/2 in. Socket Wrench

Product Overview:
Item Weight (lbs.): 1.4 lbs.
General Features:
Drive Size: 1/2 in.
Drive Tool Length: 10-3/8 in.
Drive Tool Type: Ratchet
Socket Type: Quick release
Others:
Drive Size: 1/2 in.
Ratchet Style: Polished

Snap On 1/2 in. Socket Wrench

Snap On Socket Wrench
Name Ratchet, Quick Release, 1/2" drive
Price** $149.95
Brand Snap-on
Country Of Origin USA
Dimension A, Head Depth, inches 3/4
Dimension B, Head Width, inches 1 5/8
ASME/ANSI B107.10
Dimension C, Length, inches 10 5/16
Finish Chrome
Gear Action 4.5°
Gear Teeth 80
Handle Standard
Head Type Quick Release
Ratchet Service Kit RKRSR80A
Square Drive, inches 1/2

Description:
•80 tooth gear for 4.5 degree of swing arc
•7 teeth in contact with the gear at all times to provide maximum strength and durability
•Quick release has a positive locking feature to hold socket securely in place when needed and push button for easy removal
•Sealed head keeps dirt and contamination out and lubricants in

I know that 80 gear teeth is better (makes is easier to take shorter strokes - "4.5 degree of swing arc") which costs more to manufacture (tighter tolerances). "7 teeth in contact with the gear at all times to provide maximum strength and durablility". I don't see what's in Craftsman, and not sure why they did not publish that information in their catalog...

But - your second Craftsman example is more telling...

10-3/8 in. long standard teardrop 1/2 in. drive ratchet. One-hand reversing lever. 36 gear teeth equates to 10 deg. ratcheting arc. Shape allows better access in tight spots. Weight 1.5 lbs.

Not apples to apples - definitely!

This does pair with my experience between Snap On and Craftsman. Craftsman is "ok" (definitely better than WalMart), but is definitely not the same quality as Snap On. If I were a professional mechanic, I would definitely use a Snap On over a Craftsman. I do like the way their tools "feel" and (more importantly) how they work compared to the Craftsman. To me - apples and oranges difference - and clearly not "pennies" (or even "quarters") difference to manufacture...

[badwhale]

I'm trying really hard to compare the Craftsman to the Snap On tools - but I can't get them to be apples to apples...

For starters - Craftsman sure is thin on details. Snap On sure does have quite a bit more information about their tools...

Craftsman 1/2 in. Socket Wrench



Snap On 1/2 in. Socket Wrench


I know that 80 gear teeth is better (makes is easier to take shorter strokes - "4.5 degree of swing arc") which costs more to manufacture (tighter tolerances). "7 teeth in contact with the gear at all times to provide maximum strength and durablility". I don't see what's in Craftsman, and not sure why they did not publish that information in their catalog...

Here we go...

[ggiese]

Here we go...

It's hard to argue when you don't understand the differences...

You're an engineer - you would know. If you took apart a Snap On tool and compared the "guts" to a Craftsman - do you really believe it to be apples to apples?

Before you answer that question - I'd highly recommend you do your "research"...


You're ignorance is truly shocking to me. The idea you'd argue that ignorance is even more shocking.

[ggiese]

..and Will - I would suggest it might be foolish to argue with Bill about mechanics tools. Far more than a "weekend mechanic", Bill does do quite a bit of work on cars - and intimately knows the differences between the quality of tool manufacturers. He's one of those individuals I have called on when I've had a question about what the best tool would be to do the job - knowing that he would be in a position to best know...

[CoventryCat86]

How do you know Craftsman sockets suck, and break all the time if you've replaced them?

I'll give you the screwdriver example.

I don't understand your question and you're pulling your Scotty crap again by claiming I said something that I never said. I NEVER said they break "all the time"

Here's what I said:

"Craftsman sockets suck and break far more often than Snap-On sockets" and that's a true statement.

"far more often" is completely different from your false "all the time" claim so please, knock it off.......

When I've brought the broken ones back to Sears and got replacements, they've broken too. And I'm not using them improperly, they break because they suck. I've never broken a Snap-On socket.

Your Craftsman to Snap-On socket set comparison is apples to oranges (you cited Snap-On DEEP sockets and Craftsman REGULAR sockets and for someone like you who claims you know better, you're either not anywhere near as smart as you're trying to lead us all to believe or you are that smart and your deliberately misleading us. Either way you're wrong and irresponsible), and you're real vague on the tool CHEST (not "tools" but "tools chest") comparison so that's not valid either, try again.

Geez, talk about someone who "likes to argue" you've gotten to the point where you're not even arguing rationally, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and you're losing.

[badwhale]

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog

Yeah, I did have the wrong link. Sorry, then compare $258/$29.99 = 8.6 more apples

I'm also sorry that you can't consider that I may have a point, that Snap-on tools may not cost THAT MUCH MORE to produce, but their prices reflect a measurable increase in quality, proprietary design cost, distribution & marketing.

Do you feel their prices are justified, and if so, why don't you just order directly from the website, or have your bro pick you up tools off the snappy truck?