seems reasonable...

[Smoked!]

Saw this notice on another site:

[buzz]

Meh, I would agree if it were talking about high school - but college is unnecessary for many career choices. I know a lot of guys making more money than I do who don't have a fancy diploma hanging on their wall. Plus, they don't get the annoying phone calls from the Alumni Association begging for donations. I've given enough money to the U of A thank you very much.

Or maybe I just feel like being contradictory today... Castle!

-Buzz

[mrtr33]

Meh, I would agree if it were talking about high school - but college is unnecessary for many career choices. I know a lot of guys making more money than I do who don't have a fancy diploma hanging on their wall. Plus, they don't get the annoying phone calls from the Alumni Association begging for donations. I've given enough money to the U of A thank you very much.

Or maybe I just feel like being contradictory today... Castle!

-Buzz

Ditto. Not to mention school loans. I have a masters degree and another higher-ed degree, but the job I'm working now doesn't require a bachelor's degree, and it pays more than any job I've had which did.

I guess what I'm saying is, in light of the rising costs of education and the return on the investment thereof, I think it's a more prudent investment to save up to give your kid a little nest egg once they are out - if they want to use it to go to college, more power to them. For me, college was definitely more about the experience rather than anything I learned there.

[Smoked!]

In response to each of your well considered posts I offer: Grille.

[ggiese]

Meh, I would agree if it were talking about high school - but college is unnecessary for many career choices. I know a lot of guys making more money than I do who don't have a fancy diploma hanging on their wall. Plus, they don't get the annoying phone calls from the Alumni Association begging for donations. I've given enough money to the U of A thank you very much.

Or maybe I just feel like being contradictory today... Castle!

-Buzz

I don't generally disagree, as I have seen the "no college" in action (being a product of the 70's). In those days, I saw an awful lot of people interview only to be told they were "overqualified".

However - having now been on the hiring decision side, many companies (rightly or wrongly) first consider education prior to giving the opportunity for an interview. As unfair as that is - the person without the education is at a huge disadvantage. It could mean the difference in being able to interview (for a respectable position) at least half the times than if someone with a degree.

Especially in this economy - when applying for a job or an internal promotion - the degree would definitely not hurt. Otherwise - you've got to be as sharp as a tack.

My suggestion - go to school and get a degree! You can always practice your DARE learnings and just say "NO!" to the alumni associations.


BTW Buzz - I choose when/where to make my donations, and it never happens by someone calling me cold. I start off my conversations with someone trying to solicit donations with "Take me off the list - do not call back!" - it works extremely well.

[Paddy]

I agree with George.
If I had the ability to turn back the hands of time and make better decisions I would.
As a Union Crane operator I made more money than most friends with college degrees.
But the current economy finds me “laid-off” and the days of $58.00 an hour with overtime out the ass are a distant memory. My skills are useless in an economic down swing. If my wife left me tomorrow I would be homeless & broke.
Not getting a degree places all your eggs in one basket, when the bottom brakes on that basket you are FUCKED.

[ashauler]

I have no degree, I chose the Navy out of high school. No regrets, though I agree I would have more options had I gotten a degree. I've worked my way into a decent position with my company over the last 18 years. I started at the bottom, moved up, and am now moving back down slowly since the economy has tanked. At least I have experience with all aspects of the company, so I can stay here and ride out the storms.......I hope.

[mrtr33]

I understand and, to a certain degree, agree with all dissents against obtaining a college degree. I suppose my sentiments are reflective of only my personal experience. I'm not employed in a field of my masters degree. Technically, I'm not employed in my field of my bachelor's degree. Granted, I was extraordinarily blessed enough to have the opportunity to attend college. But in hindsight, I'm wondering if the positions I've had the opportunity to work in were rewarding the idea of the degree, and not so much the degree itself.

In other words, are employers more impressed with the fact that I have that piece of paper, or more impressed that I was able to accomplish something I set out to accomplish? I tend to believe it's the latter. I say this simply because I'm not using the specific skillsets I learned in the college classroom. The skillsets I'm utilizing now are broader, such as problem solving, prioritizing, communicating, following-up - skillsets that aren't necessarily learned exclusively in college.

Again, I am only citing my personal experiences - by no means is this model ideal for anyone else.

[ggiese]

I understand and, to a certain degree, agree with all dissents against obtaining a college degree. I suppose my sentiments are reflective of only my personal experience. I'm not employed in a field of my masters degree. Technically, I'm not employed in my field of my bachelor's degree. Granted, I was extraordinarily blessed enough to have the opportunity to attend college. But in hindsight, I'm wondering if the positions I've had the opportunity to work in were rewarding the idea of the degree, and not so much the degree itself.

In other words, are employers more impressed with the fact that I have that piece of paper, or more impressed that I was able to accomplish something I set out to accomplish? I tend to believe it's the latter. I say this simply because I'm not using the specific skillsets I learned in the college classroom. The skillsets I'm utilizing now are broader, such as problem solving, prioritizing, communicating, following-up - skillsets that aren't necessarily learned exclusively in college.

Again, I am only citing my personal experiences - by no means is this model ideal for anyone else.

I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Most often, depending on what you're looking to accomplish (specialized degrees would be the primary exception), the fact that you've struggled through college and been rewarded with a diploma is a sign you've accomplished a measure of success by working hard towards your goal. It at least gives the employer some measure that you know how to (using your own words) "problem solve, prioritize, communicate and follow-up" - the key components of success. Otherwise - how would an employer know you were capable of doing that, absent some kind of acknowledgement of those traits (e.g. being awarded a diploma)?

I've found that in order to break over that "hump" - in the area between being a prospective candidate versus an employee - you either have to "WOW!" the interviewers or you have to somehow communicate there is reason for them to be "WOW!". You either have to have an incredible skillset that is demonstrable (e.g. track record of accomplishment, backed up with solid evidence) and you can B.S. well - or you have to have a degree from a school that is recognized as stringent in its graduation requirements (e.g. - you did not go to "Bubba Smith's Online U").

When I first entered law enforcement - a high school diploma was a high accomplishment and sought after. I distanced myself from other candidates just because I had completed high school. Though I've seen a pretty substantial evolution in the field - leading to the best paying jobs awarded to those that have at least a 4 year college degree. It's rare to see someone lateral transfer unless they have an incredible track record. And almost impossible for someone that only has a high school diploma.

...then of course (as my grandmother often said) - there's always a need for ditch diggers. In my offspring's case - I tell them if they're not willing to invest in a college education they can always learn the phrase, "...you want fries with that?"

[Smoked!]

Talk amongst yourselves:

[ndv21]

I'm at an odd position being that I work for Enrollment Management at my Alma Mater. I completed my bachelors and masters degree and I am partially utilizing the skills I learned in my field.

Part of my job is to "counsel" kids on going to college (be it my institution or another), but in my case, I believe that I what I learned in college was the ability to actually think outside the box as opposed to just soak up what was written in the books. Thats why it is important to me. At the same time, I understand that there are a lot of jobs that do not require a degree and pay much more than what I make and I am ok with that. Sometimes, I think the more we know, the more complicated we make our own lives.

Just my unsolicited .02 cents worth

[Paddy]

I'm at an odd position being that I work for Enrollment Management at my Alma Mater. I completed my bachelors and masters degree and I am partially utilizing the skills I learned in my field.

Part of my job is to "counsel" kids on going to college (be it my institution or another), but in my case, I believe that I what I learned in college was the ability to actually think outside the box as opposed to just soak up what was written in the books. Thats why it is important to me. At the same time, I understand that there are a lot of jobs that do not require a degree and pay much more than what I make and I am ok with that. Sometimes, I think the more we know, the more complicated we make our own lives.

Just my unsolicited .02 cents worth

I believe a degree gives you options. Yes you can make more money in some trades.
When the economy is good a person in the construction trades (especially if they are union) can easily make a six figured income. But, when the economy turns and construction stops. If all you know is your trade, you are left flapping in the breeze.
Back in the “Big Dig” day’s being a union trades man in Boston was like hitting the lotto.Now days it’s a terminal illness. Not much use for hydrolic & heavy machine operation in the non building sector.

[cigarsarge]

I like Jamie have no college degree. I went to work straight out of High School and have never been jobless. I had an uncle that offered to put me through college...He also offered to get me flying lessons. I was young and dumb and turned him down.

I have a nice position in a job I really enjoy. I make enough money to support my family with a little left over for us to play with. I worked really hard to get where I am. I wonder where I'd be if I would have taken my uncle up on his offer. I'd still be a cop...That was my dream growing up. Bet I'd be in a better position now.

[ggiese]

I like Jamie have no college degree. I went to work straight out of High School and have never been jobless. I had an uncle that offered to put me through college...He also offered to get me flying lessons. I was young and dumb and turned him down.

I have a nice position in a job I really enjoy. I make enough money to support my family with a little left over for us to play with. I worked really hard to get where I am. I wonder where I'd be if I would have taken my uncle up on his offer. I'd still be a cop...That was my dream growing up. Bet I'd be in a better position now.

I'm curious, Ken - does your department look for a degree when they're hiring recruits? Or do they still look for a minimum of a high school diploma. Are candidates given any consideration for advanced education or military experience. And if so - is the advanced education credit the same as military experience?

The reason I'm asking - when I first applied to law enforcement positions, military experience was far more valuable than a degree. That seems to have changed in the last few years. In the Chicago area, at least, it appears that recruits might have a slight advantage with a degree versus previous military experience.

BTW - the most USELESS degree (in my estimation) is a law enforcement degree. You might get credit for it when applying for a position - but I don't think there is much in the content of that degree program that give someone a leg up in job performance. Someone considering that degree program would be much better off studying something like computer science or english. Hell - even a biology degree would be more useful than a law enforcement degree...

[cigarsarge]

I'm curious, Ken - does your department look for a degree when they're hiring recruits? Or do they still look for a minimum of a high school diploma. Are candidates given any consideration for advanced education or military experience. And if so - is the advanced education credit the same as military experience?

The reason I'm asking - when I first applied to law enforcement positions, military experience was far more valuable than a degree. That seems to have changed in the last few years. In the Chicago area, at least, it appears that recruits might have a slight advantage with a degree versus previous military experience.

BTW - the most USELESS degree (in my estimation) is a law enforcement degree. You might get credit for it when applying for a position - but I don't think there is much in the content of that degree program that give someone a leg up in job performance. Someone considering that degree program would be much better off studying something like computer science or english. Hell - even a biology degree would be more useful than a law enforcement degree...

I work in a politically charged environment. The sheriff hires whoever he deems fit. The basic high school education and no criminal record are the only requirements. Some have had degrees, some are vets, and others are just hired for whatever the sheriff's reasons are. They do have to pass a civil service exam. The guys with the degrees and military service do not seem to progress any faster than those without.

I was a reserve officer for awhile. I worked a couple nights per week for free. I applied for full time, took the test and was hired. There is a little side story about my hiring I'll PM you about if you are interested.

The city does have a different system. They allow credits for military service and college degrees. I'm not familiar with the exact procedure they use but I know it is in place.

[mrtr33]

The reason I'm asking - when I first applied to law enforcement positions, military experience was far more valuable than a degree. That seems to have changed in the last few years. In the Chicago area, at least, it appears that recruits might have a slight advantage with a degree versus previous military experience.

I work in a politically charged environment. The sheriff hires whoever he deems fit. The basic high school education and no criminal record are the only requirements. Some have had degrees, some are vets, and others are just hired for whatever the sheriff's reasons are. They do have to pass a civil service exam. The guys with the degrees and military service do not seem to progress any faster than those without.

I wouldn't be surprised to find disparity in hiring criteria amongst other hiring managers in other disciplines as well.

I'm employed now as a software developer. I have many colleagues who are quite successful who have either not graduated from college or who have not finished. In one case, I have a very close friend who didn't finish high school. On the other hand, I know people with 2 masters degrees that have trouble staying employed.

I think the varying gaps have to do with regional employment needs as well as being in the right place at the right time. A dash of willingness on the part of the individual doesn't hurt, either. For example, finding an entry-level job in Silicon Valley with the same job requirements, expectations and salary as a similar job in, Mobile, Alabama would be difficult. Mobile (to my knowledge) isn't a hotbed of software development, so to attract candidates to your business, you need to up the ante and salary, or look to potentially hire help overseas or on a contract basis (which can be very expensive and not ideal for many companies). Similarly, let's say I had a similar degree (let's say mathematics) or background (let's say data entry / bookeeping) - I would think that with the right experience, and the ability to understand what the employer is looking for as well as selling to that hiring manager your positive traits, you could talk yourself into that job.