I feel so old and SO naive

[JiveTurkey]

Yes, we have different mindsets, which come from a variety of sources. You value your car, I don't value them. We make decisions that espouse those values. You choose the way you live your life, and I choose the way I want to live mine. I'm not trying to tell you how to live here, just letting folks know how I live mine.

[CoventryCat86]

Yes, we have different mindsets, which come from a variety of sources. You value your car, I don't value them. We make decisions that espouse those values. You choose the way you live your life, and I choose the way I want to live mine. I'm not trying to tell you how to live here, just letting folks know how I live mine.

It's not a matter of different mindsets or whether or not you and I "value" cars or not. In my case and in the case of just about everyone else in North America, a car is a necessity. You're lucky you live in a large college town where you can easily get by without one, the other 99.999% of us aren't so lucky. And I agree with the others, that's a cool situation you're in where you can live easily and happily without owning a car, I say great for you!

My point is that your statement that cars are "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" is kind of ridiculous. That's not a matter of you "just letting folks know how I live mine" it's a matter of you making a pretty stupid statement. And then you said this: "but it is more expensive to own a car than not" like it's a fact which it definitely is not, that's your opinion. Outside of your college town utopia where cars are almost not necessary, many arguments can be successfully made that NOT owning a car is more expensive than owning one because the alternatives are many times more expensive.

[JiveTurkey]

It's not a matter of different mindsets or whether or not you and I "value" cars or not. In my case and in the case of just about everyone else in North America, a car is a necessity. You're lucky you live in a large college town where you can easily get by without one, the other 99.999% of us aren't so lucky. And I agree with the others, that's a cool situation you're in where you can live easily and happily without owning a car, I say great for you!

My point is that your statement that cars are "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" is kind of ridiculous. That's not a matter of you "just letting folks know how I live mine" it's a matter of you making a pretty stupid statement. And then you said this: "but it is more expensive to own a car than not" like it's a fact which it definitely is not, that's your opinion. Outside of your college town utopia where cars are almost not necessary, many arguments can be successfully made that NOT owning a car is more expensive than owning one because the alternatives are many times more expensive.

Okay, I'll qualify that it in MY situation it is super expensive to own a car even one paid off (my opinion) and it is more expensive owning a car than not (fact).

[CoventryCat86]

Okay, I'll qualify that it in MY situation it is super expensive to own a car even one paid off (my opinion) and it is more expensive owning a car than not (fact).

Okay, that's very different then what you said the first time and now you're 100% correct.

[nhcigarfan]

With 4 kids I can't go without a car but if I didn't have kids and lived in an area (like NY city) I'd probably skip the car myself.

[JiveTurkey]

Okay, that's very different then what you said the first time and now you're 100% correct.

Cool.

I totally get the infrastructure isn't in place for it to be cheaper not to own a car in your area and others. Though it works really well for me, it may not work at all for you.

For those who might be in a better position to be able to and want to, it took us years to slowly figure out how to live well without a car. For a long while we owned a car and tried all the little ways to get by without it.

[ashauler]

It's not a matter of different mindsets or whether or not you and I "value" cars or not. In my case and in the case of just about everyone else in North America, a car is a necessity. You're lucky you live in a large college town where you can easily get by without one, the other 99.999% of us aren't so lucky. And I agree with the others, that's a cool situation you're in where you can live easily and happily without owning a car, I say great for you!

My point is that your statement that cars are "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" is kind of ridiculous. That's not a matter of you "just letting folks know how I live mine" it's a matter of you making a pretty stupid statement. And then you said this: "but it is more expensive to own a car than not" like it's a fact which it definitely is not, that's your opinion. Outside of your college town utopia where cars are almost not necessary, many arguments can be successfully made that NOT owning a car is more expensive than owning one because the alternatives are many times more expensive.

JiveTurkey, I wish I would have sent you a PM. Sorry. I asked because I was genuinely interested, and I appreciate your response. I'm sorry you're getting shit on for it.

I don't think it's a ridiculous or stupid statement at all. Statements like that are relative to ones situation. What's ridiculous is the $1300/yr operating costs for a vehicle, paid off or not. In my experience, that's woefully understated.

I'm not smart enough to understand how NOT owning a car can be more expensive than owning one. You've completely lost me on that one. A bus pass for unlimited rides for a year, where I live is $1080, or $90/month. Again, I spend more than that just for fuel, no mention of legally required insurance (no, I don't get the fancy collision and comprehensive coverage either), maintenance, taxes, tags, etc.....so from where I sit "but it is more expensive to own a car than not" would be a fact. No? Help me understand how it's not please. I am, after all, a simple country boy.

It's also pretty goddamn ridiculous, imo, to basically call someone stupid and ridiculous and start throwing around irrelevant bullshit about the occupy the crack of my ass people as a way to further ridicule someones beliefs that you don't agree with. What a load of nonsense, imo, of course. I'm certainly not above taking shots at asshats/mooches/trolls/thiefs, but none of that applies here, again, imo.

[cigarsarge]

Going green has advantages to the forward looking person. Growing your own food, solar power for your house, providing your own means of transportation forgoing the oil companies, has definate financial advantages as well as making the earth more livable. The wife and I are making serious strides in becomming more non dependant on "the system". I don't see myself being able to get rid of my cars. That is not practical for me at this. I can cut back on gas consumption. I do grow a good part of my food and get quite a bit from a food co-op we belong to. A few of us are about to slaughter a cow that was free range fed.

My wife and I are looking at solar power seriously. I have a friend that uses it...So far without a flaw.

[kevin7]

Sarge ,we have about 5 families on solar power here and the excess is bought by our electric co op at wholesale rates. It was a big expense up front to the customer but out co op fully supports solar and wind generation. Look into it

[heftysmokes]

We've been looking into adding solar as well. Doing some preliminary research, the wife found these http://www.dowsolar.com/ which I think would be a cool way to go when they become more widely available. Supposedly, they will be better at withstanding damage from wind, hail, etc. The wife likes that they blend in a bit better than the big panels mounted on your roof.

[ashauler]

Sarge ,we have about 5 families on solar power here and the excess is bought by our electric co op at wholesale rates. It was a big expense up front to the customer but out co op fully supports solar and wind generation. Look into it

Kevin, how does that work? The selling back part. How is the excess power metered?

[Roham]

Kevin, how does that work? The selling back part. How is the excess power metered?

What, you wanna get Kevin shit on too now??? lol just joking

[kevin7]

Kevin, how does that work? The selling back part. How is the excess power metered?

We have some special meters that read forward (normal) power flow and reverse(u selling to us) flow. We are about .10 a kWh retail and we pay people about .06 a kWh(wholesale) for the excess solar power they sell to us. Meters are read over the powerline and solar customers are paid every 3 months. Its not gonna make you rich or anything but it is pretty cool and if you have enough panels you can generate a pretty significant amount of power. We currently have a customer thinking about installing a wind turbine. We will buy his excess power too if he has any. The transformer that feeds a residential customer works both ways,put high voltage in it (ours is 12,470 phase to phase /7,200 phase to ground) and you get 120/240 volts out of it. Put 240 in it and you will get 7,200 volts out of it. If you hook up an emergency generator up in an outage without disconnecting from the grid it will put out deadly voltage and sufficient amps to kill anybody touching a downed power line,linemen die because of this every year.

[Paddy]

Going green has advantages to the forward looking person. Growing your own food, solar power for your house, providing your own means of transportation forgoing the oil companies, has definate financial advantages as well as making the earth more livable. The wife and I are making serious strides in becomming more non dependant on "the system". I don't see myself being able to get rid of my cars. That is not practical for me at this. I can cut back on gas consumption. I do grow a good part of my food and get quite a bit from a food co-op we belong to. A few of us are about to slaughter a cow that was free range fed.

My wife and I are looking at solar power seriously. I have a friend that uses it...So far without a flaw.

I with you there Ken, I only like grass fed beef. The first time I saw a steak here in the USA and saw the fat was pure white I was shocked. Only after some research I discovered that color comes from force-fed corn.

[CoventryCat86]

JiveTurkey, I wish I would have sent you a PM. Sorry. I asked because I was genuinely interested, and I appreciate your response. I'm sorry you're getting shit on for it.

I don't think it's a ridiculous or stupid statement at all. Statements like that are relative to ones situation. What's ridiculous is the $1300/yr operating costs for a vehicle, paid off or not. In my experience, that's woefully understated.

I'm not smart enough to understand how NOT owning a car can be more expensive than owning one. You've completely lost me on that one. A bus pass for unlimited rides for a year, where I live is $1080, or $90/month. Again, I spend more than that just for fuel, no mention of legally required insurance (no, I don't get the fancy collision and comprehensive coverage either), maintenance, taxes, tags, etc.....so from where I sit "but it is more expensive to own a car than not" would be a fact. No? Help me understand how it's not please. I am, after all, a simple country boy.

It's also pretty goddamn ridiculous, imo, to basically call someone stupid and ridiculous and start throwing around irrelevant bullshit about the occupy the crack of my ass people as a way to further ridicule someones beliefs that you don't agree with. What a load of nonsense, imo, of course. I'm certainly not above taking shots at asshats/mooches/trolls/thiefs, but none of that applies here, again, imo.

I did NOT call him "stupid" or "ridiculous" there's a difference. I'm not going to go back and play the little

quote game

but go back and read exactly what I said because it isn't what you claim it was. I know you're smart enough to know the difference so you can cut the $hit anytime now.

We don't have "bus passes" in my area because THERE ARE NO BUSES. How many parts of North America do you really think have bus routes where you can buy a bus pass? The reality either way you want to cut it (percentage of population served by public buses or percentage of land area served by public buses) it's incredibly small. The only option would be paying a taxi or livery service and that Jamie would cost more than all costs associated with automobile ownership more often than not so yeah, if you don't have public transportation available to you then it almost certainly costs more to not own a car than to own one if you have to rely on hiring private transportation to bring you to your job and to get even little insignificant things like food.

And I didn't "start throwing around irrelevant bullshit about the occupy the crack of my ass people as a way to further ridicule someones beliefs that you don't agree with" you asswipe, my issue was with the STATEMENTS he made, not his "beliefs" so once again knock it off, I honestly can't believe you're being such a dickhead.

[ashauler]

I did NOT call him "stupid" or "ridiculous" there's a difference. I'm not going to go back and play the little but go back and read exactly what I said because it isn't what you claim it was. I know you're smart enough to know the difference so you can cut the $hit anytime now.

We don't have "bus passes" in my area because THERE ARE NO BUSES. How many parts of North America do you really think have bus routes where you can buy a bus pass? The reality either way you want to cut it (percentage of population served by public buses or percentage of land area served by public buses) it's incredibly small. The only option would be paying a taxi or livery service and that Jamie would cost more than all costs associated with automobile ownership more often than not so yeah, if you don't have public transportation available to you then it almost certainly costs more to not own a car than to own one if you have to rely on hiring private transportation to bring you to your job and to get even little insignificant things like food.

And I didn't "start throwing around irrelevant bullshit about the occupy the crack of my ass people as a way to further ridicule someones beliefs that you don't agree with" you asswipe, my issue was with the STATEMENTS he made, not his "beliefs" so once again knock it off, I honestly can't believe you're being such a dickhead.

Heh, asswipe and dickhead all in the same post. Schweeeeet!

I saw what I saw in the thread, and you're right, I know the difference. Who brought up the occupy folks? And what was the intent in doing so?

I don't live in a huge metropolis ya know, so I would assume a fuck-load of places have buses, and routes, and passes if where I live does. KC for example...and Dallas....and Tulsa, etc. Most likely, people desiring to live without a car would locate in one of them. BTW, my town isn't a college town utopia either.

But anyway, the hook didn't have a barb.

[prophetic_joe]

Bill

Expensive
a: commanding a high price and especially one that is not based on intrinsic worth or is beyond a prospective buyer's means

Intrinsic
a: belonging to a thing by its very nature

Worth
a: good or important enough to justify

So based on definition alone, in Jive's perspective owning a car is "Super Expensive" in that for his particular situation the car's INTRINSIC WORTH does not justify the cost. In Jive's particular situation it is cheaper to own and ride a bicicle than to own and drive a car therefore in Jive's particular situation a car is in fact SUPER EXPENSIVE and as he only mentioned expense as one of the 4 reasons for him and him alone not owning a car (other reasons being "for health reasons...philosophical reasons" and as he mentioned "envioronmental") I feel Jive is completely justified in telling you to fuck right off for insinuating he was coloring the facts a bit with his comment and that his reason was "pretty much an "environmental" statement".

Jive don't listen to anything Bill says today he obviously decided to harness his complete "Miss Crabtree" persona (as George likes to call it)

Bill lighten up.

[CoventryCat86]

Bill

Expensive
a: commanding a high price and especially one that is not based on intrinsic worth or is beyond a prospective buyer's means

Intrinsic
a: belonging to a thing by its very nature

Worth
a: good or important enough to justify

So based on definition alone, in Jive's perspective owning a car is "Super Expensive" in that for his particular situation the car's INTRINSIC WORTH does not justify the cost. In Jive's particular situation it is cheaper to own and ride a bicicle than to own and drive a car therefore in Jive's particular situation a car is in fact SUPER EXPENSIVE and as he only mentioned expense as one of the 4 reasons for him and him alone not owning a car (other reasons being "for health reasons...philosophical reasons" and as he mentioned "envioronmental") I feel Jive is completely justified in telling you to fuck right off for insinuating he was coloring the facts a bit with his comment and that his reason was "pretty much an "environmental" statement".

Jive don't listen to anything Bill says today he obviously decided to harness his complete "Miss Crabtree" persona (as George likes to call it)

Bill lighten up.

Nice use of the dictionary but it's all irrelevant because his initial statement WAS NOT qualified with "his particular situation." This is where the problem was but he's since clarified/modified his initial statement so at this point, why are you even putting your two cent in? So I guess using your logic, I'm completely justified in telling you to fuck right off so feel free to do so anytime you want.

[CoventryCat86]

Heh, asswipe and dickhead all in the same post. Schweeeeet!

I saw what I saw in the thread, and you're right, I know the difference. Who brought up the occupy folks? And what was the intent in doing so?

I don't live in a huge metropolis ya know, so I would assume a fuck-load of places have buses, and routes, and passes if where I live does. KC for example...and Dallas....and Tulsa, etc. Most likely, people desiring to live without a car would locate in one of them. BTW, my town isn't a college town utopia either.

But anyway, the hook didn't have a barb.

You "saw what you saw" and you saw wrong, that's unfortunate.

You also assumed wrong about the "fuck-load of places (that) have buses, and route, and passes" then didn't you? Only a very small percentage of the population of North America is served by any form of public transportation.

Maybe if you'd think before you swing and miss, I wouldn't swear at you.

[heftysmokes]

After a 3 second google search for --percentage of population with access to public transportation--


http://www.nal.usda.gov/ric/ricpubs/publictrans.htm


" <snip> Public transportation is available in approximately sixty percent of all rural counties nationwide, for a total of about 1,200 systems (Stommes, Brown, and Houston, 2002). About two-thirds of rural systems operate in single counties or are city/town in scope; only about one out of four rural transit providers operate in a multi-county area. About 60 percent of rural transit providers are public bodies, and roughly a third are nonprofit agencies; only five percent are private companies or tribal entities. <snip>"

60% obviously isn't a vast majority, but it certainly isn't "The reality either way you want to cut it (percentage of population served by public buses or percentage of land area served by public buses) it's incredibly small."


Also, I found this tidbit from here- http://www.unitedweride.gov/1_128_ENG_HTML.htm
"In 2001, on average, American households devoted 19.3 percent of every dollar spent to transportation expenses. This is the second largest expense category – more than three times the cost of health care – adding up to $7,633 per family annually just to get around. Housing, at $13,011 per year is the only category that exceeds transportation as an expenditure." (Surface Transportation Policy Project, July 2003 )

--Apparently my $1300 estimate, even for the handy guy who does his own wrenching, looks woefully low.