Cigarsmokers.com Box Pass Ver. 2.0

[CoventryCat86]

As I have mentioned, I do not want the trade/buying/selling of ISOM's to be discussed on this board. I'm not saying they can not be included in a pass, but it's up to the organizer(s) and members to get things straight via an alternate method of communication.

It's really for everyone’s benefit for us not to publicly announce that someone has these in their possession to begin with.

Having them in your possession is not illegal, using US Dollars to purchase them is. If people are going to do passes around here that include Cuban cigars, how can we NOT talk and/or post about them?

[hex1848]

Not according to this article on the US customs website: http://www.customs.gov/xp/cgov/trave...ban_cigars.xml. The basic gist of the article follows:

It is also illegal for U.S. persons to buy, sell, trade, or otherwise engage in transactions involving illegally-imported Cuban cigars. The penalties for doing so include, in addition to confiscation of the cigars, civil fines of up to $55,000 per violation and in appropriate cases, criminal prosecution which may result in higher fines and/or imprisonment

I copied the article and linked to it on the policy thread: http://www.cigarsmokers.com/t494-off...an-cigars.html

[Drake]

Not according to this article on the US customs website: http://www.customs.gov/xp/cgov/trave...ban_cigars.xml. The basic gist of the article follows:



I copied the article and linked to it on the policy thread: http://www.cigarsmokers.com/t494-off...an-cigars.html

what about a CFAPNTBM?

cigar from a place not to be mentioned

[jaewing]

Hex is correct.

Currently, due to US political policies with regard to Cuba and the resulting trade embargo, it is illegal to possess, trade, sell, buy, or otherwise deal in ANY Cuban products, not just cigars. This unfortunately would apply to any trades or box passes perpetuated here in this forum or anywhere else. And, after having read the official policy, it is somewhat disturbing to know that the penalties for violating the embargo apply to all parties and even individuals - and they are VERY SERIOUS . . . jail and major fines.

With all the great cigars from so many other places I don't think ignoring the Cubans in our trades and box passes will be all that great of a loss. However, not ever having had the oportunity to smoke a Cuban cigar before I may be understating the loss. Since I am a new Brother of the Leaf (BOTL) I am content in trying all that is "legally" available to me in the cigar world. Maybe when I am done with all there is out there I will try a Cuban.

What it comes down to ultimately is that Hex has asked us all to abide by the rules of this forum. One of these rules is not to discuss the trades and or sales of Cuban cigars on this forum. Regardless of whether the embargo does, or does not (and we know it does), cover our trades and box passes, he has asked politely that it not occur here.

I for one will respect that.

[ggiese]

Hex is correct.

Currently, due to US political policies with regard to Cuba and the resulting trade embargo, it is illegal to possess, trade, sell, buy, or otherwise deal in ANY Cuban products, not just cigars. This unfortunately would apply to any trades or box passes perpetuated here in this forum or anywhere else. And, after having read the official policy, it is somewhat disturbing to know that the penalties for violating the embargo apply to all parties and even individuals - and they are VERY SERIOUS . . . jail and major fines.

With all the great cigars from so many other places I don't think ignoring the Cubans in our trades and box passes will be all that great of a loss. However, not ever having had the oportunity to smoke a Cuban cigar before I may be understating the loss. Since I am a new Brother of the Leaf (BOTL) I am content in trying all that is "legally" available to me in the cigar world. Maybe when I am done with all there is out there I will try a Cuban.

What it comes down to ultimately is that Hex has asked us all to abide by the rules of this forum. One of these rules is not to discuss the trades and or sales of Cuban cigars on this forum. Regardless of whether the embargo does, or does not (and we know it does), cover our trades and box passes, he has asked politely that it not occur here.

I for one will respect that.

I think you are correct with everything EXCEPT the possess part. At this point it time, I do not believe it is illegal to POSSESS Cuban products - the rest is true (buying, selling, trading). And I believe there have been some court challenges to the possess part - I'm just not sure of the outcome... Maybe the lawyers on the board could research Lexis on that issue, if they have access. This would be good information.

As far as the box pass is concerned - and for future information - there either should not be any in the box, or there would have to be some method of discussing them which would be suitable to meet Hex's requirements. Some boards openly discuss them - others place a full ban on them. Whatever Hex decides is what must fly on this board. If Hex wants it that way - that's the way it must be!

It seems there is a certain tolerance for discussion (in private), but not on any public forum. on this board. My discussion of the illegal products on this thread was in response to an open discussion about whether there would be problems in this box pass - and there ARE some pitfalls (as I've previously stated). I only wished to inform other members about those pitfalls - I'm sorry, Hex, if I have offended you or the members of this board.

Since I'm not involved in this box pass, it doesn't much matter for me at this time. But, if I were to be involved in a box pass somewhere down the line, there should be some type of rules for the inclusion of these "products", or maybe there should be a total ban. These rules really need to be thought about... While the rule from Hex is clear, there seems to be some "bending" of that rule in these threads. It seems we are in a "gray" area (certainly it would not be bad to talk about issues related to trading, just not talking ABOUT the trades themselves). But, maybe I'm wrong.

As Jae points out, there are plenty of domestically available cigars that are very nice smokes. Some, to me, surpass the quality and taste of ISOM's. Certainly, it will not be the end of the world if members don't get the chance to try one...

[jaewing]

http://usembassy.state.gov/posts/cu1/wwwhleg.html

This is a good link to some information. I may do some research (since I am an attorney) with regard to "possession" being covered under the Act. However, how does one possess a cuban product unless he violated the "buy, sell, trade, deal in, import" prohibitions which are covered in the Act?

Interesting question.

[ggiese]

http://usembassy.state.gov/posts/cu1/wwwhleg.html

This is a good link to some information. I may do some research (since I am an attorney) with regard to "possession" being covered under the Act. However, how does one possess a cuban product unless he violated the "buy, sell, trade, deal in, import" prohibitions which are covered in the Act?

Interesting question.

That would be a great legal question on the prosection side, but I don't think you can arrest or prosecute for possession unless there's a law banning possession. i.e. - "Possession" of cannabis - even though there are laws in place for "buy, sell, trade, deal in and import".

Just a thought...

[ggiese]

http://usembassy.state.gov/posts/cu1/wwwhleg.html

This is a good link to some information. I may do some research (since I am an attorney) with regard to "possession" being covered under the Act. However, how does one possess a cuban product unless he violated the "buy, sell, trade, deal in, import" prohibitions which are covered in the Act?

Interesting question.

Jaewing - I don't know what area of law you practice - and I'm interested in your research of this issue - and please don't take insult from this, but unless you practice law related to criminal prosecution on the Federal level, you're opinion is about the same as mine.

I will say this, being in the criminal justice system - as much as one may try, stretching a prosecution for "possession" out of "buy, sell, or trade" is fraught with disaster. You'd have some HUGE legal hurdles to overcome to establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt in that case, not the least of which being there is no specific charge for possession. You'd have some HUGE legal hurdles to establish probable cause for an arrest warrant - and probable cause is just above a "hunch" on the proof scale.

I have a funny feeling we're not going to see the Cuban cigar nazi's breaking down our doors, cleaning out our stashes. It is wise of you Hex, not to bring on the ire of the federal government on this issue. It is still considered "Trading with the Enemy" - and in our current political climate, it's not a good idea to be considered trading with the enemy (although Fidel Castro is small potatoes compared to others the government is interested in).

I personally don't see anything wrong with talking about Cuban cigars. I can see a Mods position of wanting to call them something else other than Cuban cigars for the good of the board. I can also see establishing a rule which discourages talking openly about sources, trades and sales. And I absolutely HATE those people who post the shill sites selling fake Cubans. But, if there is to be a rule, then I believe guidelines need to be established. Black and White - you talk about it or you don't. If you are going to allow conversations about, then what is permissable? And the rule should not be arbitrary, it should be universal. Mods should be PMing those that are violating the rules - EVERYONE violating the rule...