National Guard-Which Border?

[Desert Rat]

I've been working long hours and way out of touch with the news.

Last night, I caught the tail end of a newscast that described manning the border with National Guardsmen.

Unfortunately, I missed the part of the broadcast that stated WHICH BORDER we were getting ready to defend.

Are we getting ready to lock and load on the Canadian or Mexican border?

[SuperChuck]

Duh, Mexican. Pedro is the new al Quaeda.

[NullSmurf]

Regretfully, there will be no lock and load. I doubt the NG will even be permitted sidearms. They are being deployed in a support role, a kind of "official" border posse. Who knows what their exact role will be. Not arming them is part of Dubya's kiss to his buddy Vincente.

6000 troops is also a token, rediculously low number.

[CoventryCat86]

I've been working long hours and way out of touch with the news.

Last night, I caught the tail end of a newscast that described manning the border with National Guardsmen.

Unfortunately, I missed the part of the broadcast that stated WHICH BORDER we were getting ready to defend.

Are we getting ready to lock and load on the Canadian or Mexican border?

CANADA!!

Next time Roham tries to sneak down here we're going to toss his ass in Gitmo!!

[Bassfever]

Its gets better. Mexico threatened to sue the US if the NG detained anyone crossing over. WTF!

[SuperChuck]

Its gets better. Mexico threatened to sue the US if the NG detained anyone crossing over. WTF!

Are emigres covered under NAFTA?

[FlowerBasketExpress2005]

Its gets better. Mexico threatened to sue the US if the NG detained anyone crossing over. WTF!

President said they wont be detained but sent back emmidiately. Which means they get to try it again in the morning. We are also getting remotely controlled flying cameras... sounds like fun.

[SmokinDVM]

Dumbya is desperate for popularity points. All he's accomplishing is pissing off everyone involved.
Same as usual.

He would NEVER do what it would really take to stop, or slow, illegals.

[BigMacFU]

Bush is a democrat when it comes to border controls and Mexico. What's funny, is that from a pure capitalist standpoint, a free flowing work force is as great as it gets, and so is a uber-conservative view along political lines. You should be cheering Bush for his border politics Smokin'.

[SmokinDVM]

Bush is a democrat when it comes to border controls and Mexico. What's funny, is that from a pure capitalist standpoint, a free flowing work force is as great as it gets, and so is a uber-conservative view along political lines. You should be cheering Bush for his border politics Smokin'.

A free flowing "workforce" is exactly what he plans on keeping with his "support only" troops. The people that are hiring these illegals and paying slave wages, and thus driving down the wages and standard of living of all Americans, will continue to be able to do business as usual. He only wants to keep the slave labor force intact, while trying to make it LOOK like he's doing something, so dumbya isn't a Democrat on this issue.

My views don't fit with either party on this subject, as niether wants to really fix the problem.
The border needs to be completely sealed to illegal immigrants. One illegal enters the U.S., from Mexico, every 80 seconds. Build a wall, hire an EFFECTIVE, well financed, and well trained border patrol, and fine the livin' shit out of employers who hire illegals. And, NO FRICKIN AMNESTY for the illegals already here. Amnesty only serves as a slap in the face to all those LEGAL immigrants who worked hard and waited a long time to become citizens. By fining the employers, and I mean at least $50k or more per illegal, the jobs will dry up, and the illegals will be climbing the wall to get back to Mexico.

[WOXOF]

A free flowing "workforce" is exactly what he plans on keeping with his "support only" troops. The people that are hiring these illegals and paying slave wages, and thus driving down the wages and standard of living of all Americans, will continue to be able to do business as usual. He only wants to keep the slave labor force intact, while trying to make it LOOK like he's doing something, so dumbya isn't a Democrat on this issue.

My views don't fit with either party on this subject, as niether wants to really fix the problem.
The border needs to be completely sealed to illegal immigrants. One illegal enters the U.S., from Mexico, every 80 seconds. Build a wall, hire an EFFECTIVE, well financed, and well trained border patrol, and fine the livin' shit out of employers who hire illegals. And, NO FRICKIN AMNESTY for the illegals already here. Amnesty only serves as a slap in the face to all those LEGAL immigrants who worked hard and waited a long time to become citizens. By fining the employers, and I mean at least $50k or more per illegal, the jobs will dry up, and the illegals will be climbing the wall to get back to Mexico.

What he said!

[SuperChuck]

By fining the employers, and I mean at least $50k or more per illegal, the jobs will dry up, and the illegals will be climbing the wall to get back to Mexico.

And would put a quarter of the small businesses in the country out of business.

Illegal immigrants aren't working for Enron or IBM, they're working for landscapers, roofers, painters, builders, etc.

Does anyone know at what point it became difficult to enter the United Stated? I can't imagine my ancestors applied for a work visa or went through ANYTHING that you or I would call a "process". They didn't speak a single word of English. In fact, my grandfather's family name was changed because the immigration officer couldn't spell it. "This is your new name"

I have a plan... We gladly take in anyone that wants to come here and work. In exchange, we send back all the lazy Americans that DON'T want to work...

[BigMacFU]

And would put a quarter of the small businesses in the country out of business.

Illegal immigrants aren't working for Enron or IBM, they're working for landscapers, roofers, painters, builders, etc.

Does anyone know at what point it became difficult to enter the United Stated? I can't imagine my ancestors applied for a work visa or went through ANYTHING that you or I would call a "process". They didn't speak a single word of English. In fact, my grandfather's family name was changed because the immigration officer couldn't spell it. "This is your new name"

I have a plan... We gladly take in anyone that wants to come here and work. In exchange, we send back all the lazy Americans that DON'T want to work...

That's sad because it's true. Who put that post up recently about their grandpa saying if there were a depression today, people wouldn't be doing anything they could for a living, they'd just start looting and stealing because the XY and some (not nearly as bad as the following generations) of the Baby Boomer generations think they're entitled to everything.

Chuck has a lot of truth in what he says. Mexican's take the jobs too many Americans think they're above. My Uncle, with my cousin and I were the only white roofing crew in Chicago the past 4 years, with the exception of the occasional Polish crew (immigrants though). There certainly is an arrogance in our country when kids think they're too good to dig ditches, cut lawns, bus tables, etc...

[Newfie]

snip... {immagrants from other areas} take the jobs too many Americans think they're above. ....snip....There certainly is an arrogance in our country when kids think they're too good to dig ditches, cut lawns, bus tables, etc...

Identical situations in Canada. Same shit, different country.

[SmokinDVM]

Here we go with the "they do the jobs Americans won't do".
Look, if those businesses were willing to pay more than 1/2 minimum wage, they'd get plenty of Americans willing to do the job.
My youngest son was let go from a job at a restaurant so the owner could hire 4 illegals for the same amount they paid my boy. My son was more than willing to bus those tables and wash the dishes.
Minimum wage laws weren't put into place so businesses could break the law by hiring illegals, and breaking it again by paying them less than minimum. If a business can't survive when paying their employees a reasonable wage, then they don't need to exist. People might have to go back to doing their own mowing and trimming, oh no, the World might come to an end!
Our economy, in its present neocon destroyed state, can't continue to absorb immigrants at this kind of rate. At several times in this Countries history, we needed the influx of immigrants to continue to expand. Now, it will only serve to further erode our economy and standard of living.

BTW, the main distinction between how our Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers came into this Country is that they did it LEGALLY. In the late 1700's immigration into the US was wide open, as long as you were white. There have been many modifications to the immigration laws in the US, but they came when they would be best for the Country.

Why don't we try getting rid of the BS free trade and try a little fair trade. Make other countries that want to do business in the US, bring their wages and standard of living up to meet ours. If they don't, charge an appropriate tariff so they would have to compete with US companies on equal ground. Make them produce a product that is competitive in quality to compete here and not just cheaper. They all still want to trade with us, we are the biggest consumers on the planet.

[BigMacFU]

I'm not saying it's a good thing they'll do jobs Americans won't, I'm just stating the facts. Our country is full of lazy arrogant folks who think they're too good to do a lot of types of work. Why are kids who grow up in the ghetto taught the only way out of poverty is Basketball or Rap, because for many of them, no one had the wisdom to say, heck you could get into a trade and actually work hard and earn a living and move up that way. My uncle has been a roofer all his life, he's put his three girls through college and is still on the roofs doing all the work.

So, maybe your boy is like my uncle, and if so, kudos, and I wish there were more like him.

[SmokinDVM]

I'm not saying it's a good thing they'll do jobs Americans won't, I'm just stating the facts. Our country is full of lazy arrogant folks who think they're too good to do a lot of types of work. Why are kids who grow up in the ghetto taught the only way out of poverty is Basketball or Rap, because for many of them, no one had the wisdom to say, heck you could get into a trade and actually work hard and earn a living and move up that way. My uncle has been a roofer all his life, he's put his three girls through college and is still on the roofs doing all the work.

So, maybe your boy is like my uncle, and if so, kudos, and I wish there were more like him.

Well, it's definitely true that America is full of lazy shits. However, there is still plenty of people willing to work at those jobs, for a FAIR wage. You can't ask people to work for $5 or $6 an hour and raise a family. Hell we shouldn't want anyone in this Country to have to do that.

I saw the move to lower wages for the average guys in this Country start in the early '80's with RR's breaking the ATC's union. Hell, I was working in a meatpacking plant in the mid-80's, not a great job, but you could make a living. After about 3 years there, the company decided they wanted to cut wages, and not just a little cut, but bring the maximum hourly wage a guy could make working the floor from $18/hour to $9/hour. Now of course the union had to strike over that, and the company responded by following old RR's lead and bringing in scabs. The scabs in this case just happened to be from Mexico. Somehow 3 buses were chartered to bring illegals up from Mexico. Last time I was back in that town, the only people working that plant, other than management, were illegals.

Whatever the solution, it can't include the decline of the standard of living of the average American. If the illegal aliens continue to pour into this Country unchecked, there will be nothing to stop the continued decay.

[SuperChuck]

I think we're losing our sense of competitiveness here. We feel we have some god-given right to make $18 packing meat. Sure, someone else will do it for half that, but we're somehow better than that.

I work in software, which is currently all being exported to India. How do I deal with that? I don't want laws passed or unions formed, I want to be smarter and better than any of these Indian job shops. THAT is the American way, the desire to be better and remain competitive, not for Congress to pass laws so we can continue to be lazy...

[Shagaroo]

I work in software, which is currently all being exported to India. How do I deal with that? I don't want laws passed or unions formed, I want to be smarter and better than any of these Indian job shops. THAT is the American way, the desire to be better and remain competitive, not for Congress to pass laws so we can continue to be lazy...

If you think simply being smarter than the Indian job shops is going to save you from outsourcing, no offense bruddah, but you have not been paying attention. I have had years of experience with everything from my ISP to game support, to software companies who have outsourced to India. I can tell you now, a clump if dirt is smarter than those clowns and it doesn't matter to corporate America. It's all about big paychecks for upper management and board members and huge golden parachutes. Consumers and employees can go rot.

And now we are losing manual labor to illegals. Not everybody can be a doctor or lawyer. Not everybody wants to be a doctor or lawyer. They should still be able to raise a family and have a home and pay their bills. I know many hard working people in the contruction and landscaping industry who have lost their jobs and their buinesses because they can't compete with companies that hire nothing but illegals and pay them $3 or $4 an hour off the books. That's not arrogance or laziness.

[SuperChuck]

If you think simply being smarter than the Indian job shops is going to save you from outsourcing, no offense bruddah, but you have not been paying attention. I have had years of experience with everything from my ISP to game support, to software companies who have outsourced to India. I can tell you now, a clump if dirt is smarter than those clowns and it doesn't matter to corporate America. It's all about big paychecks for upper management and board members and huge golden parachutes. Consumers and employees can go rot.

If outsourcing to India was a golden bullet, the software industry would crash tomorrow. Just as you've pointed out, most of the Indian job shops do an awful job. I've heard of several companies that have actually been moving jobs back to the US because the quality of work is so bad.

The equilibrium point will probably fall where design and technical work is done mostly in the US and mundane keyboard pounding is mostly done abroad. I work hard to be dynamic and keep my skills up, but many of the people I have worked with do just one thing (C on AIX, for example) and usually don't do it well.

And now we are losing manual labor to illegals. Not everybody can be a doctor or lawyer. Not everybody wants to be a doctor or lawyer. They should still be able to raise a family and have a home and pay their bills. I know many hard working people in the contruction and landscaping industry who have lost their jobs and their buinesses because they can't compete with companies that hire nothing but illegals and pay them $3 or $4 an hour off the books. That's not arrogance or laziness.

Would it be any different if these were legal immigrants?

The reason we abolished slavery in the north was mainly due to the huge influx of immigrants who would do awful work for next to nothing. It was cheaper to hire a bunch of expendible Irish to work in hellish factory conditions than it was to maintain slaves.

If someone is willing to work for 3 bucks an hour, they're going to get work, whether they're legal or not. We need to start taking advantage of all that American citizenship offers us and stop aspiring to dig ditches.

My family came over with a couple sheep and started farming. My grandfather had an 8th grade education, worked as a cobbler, and managed to put all 3 of his kids through college. His 3 grandkids all have college educations and have careers (well, not my sister, but she's an artist). We dig our own ditches (we still think we're greenhorns), but we don't dig anyone else's...