God Bless America....

[SuperChuck]

Honestly, I have heard lots of complaining from those who want to keep the borders open, but no suggestions other than leaving things as they are or granting amnesty to those who have broken our laws.

That's a nasty, nasty problem.

Part of me says "Illegal immigrants are living the American Dream". They want to come here so they can work hard and earn a "fair wage" to support their families. How different is that than when MY family came over?

I'm kind of impartial on the whole "breaking the law" thing. It can fall into that grey area of stealing bread.

But... There are a lot of people waiting to get into the country legally. What do you do about them? You really don't want a guest worker program that keeps the illegals in and keeps those seeking legal immigration out. That would penalize the people that are trying to do it the right way.

So I get caught in this little Catch-22.

[Shelby07]

Getting caught in the middle of doing what's best for others and doing what's best for you is always a major dillema because of the guilt factor. Both alternatives need to be weighed. I think if it wasn't for the fact that we were attacked on our own soil this whole thing would have stayed down in the noise, regardless of the cost associated with it. But the reality for me is that we do need to protect ourselves, and that means more restrictions to try to prevent others from hurting us.

The fact of the matter is that illegals are a tremendous drain on our economy. We do, in fact, pay a huge bill to maintain and care for them that would disappear or be substantially reduced if they paid into the system. The solution has to include having everyone pay in, and that's what the guest worker program would accomplish. Not only that, but anyone who has been working here would have to pony up penalties and taxes and declare themselves and their reason for being here. If they are unwilling to do so, they will be deported. Seems fair to me.

The current tax base is adjusted to take into account the cost associated with the 12 million or so illegals in this country. Legitimate employers currently carry the brunt of the cost, and taxes that you and I pay take up the slack. In fact, thoes who use illegals and pay them under the table are not paying anything into the system for these workers. Having guest workers pay into the system would relieve some of the burdon on employers and allow them to put that money into higher salaries.

I personally don't feel guilty about what I have. Many people do, but in reality we all pay more than our fair share. By the time you add up Federal, State city, and county tax, along with the taxes built into the cost of goods and additional excise and "sin" tax, many of us are paying over 50% of our income into the tax base. In addition. most of us contribute to various charities and organizations. Just because we have grown our economy when others haven't, we shouldn't feel guilty for not giving most of it away. God knows our government does that for us. We give enough of it back through taxes that fund foreign aid as well as supplement the poor of this country. There just isn't enough guilt to justify not securing our borders and our security. We can no longer afford to be nice guys and look the other way unless we are willing to pay with more American lives. And I strongly believe that we are at a high risk of that happening until we get this issue of knowing who is here somewhat under control.

[SuperChuck]

The current tax base is adjusted to take into account the cost associated with the 12 million or so illegals in this country. Legitimate employers currently carry the brunt of the cost, and taxes that you and I pay take up the slack. In fact, thoes who use illegals and pay them under the table are not paying anything into the system for these workers. Having guest workers pay into the system would relieve some of the burdon on employers and allow them to put that money into higher salaries.

Unfortunately, I think that's kind of a pipe dream.

Most transient laborer jobs are paid under the table, whether you're a Mexican or a white guy. I dont think I've ever met anyone in construction that gets taxes taken out of their paycheck, and I know fewer that actually declare the money.

[heftysmokes]

Well, I'm not a good swimmer but I'll jump in with a few observations I've had while reading this....if someone sees me going under, kindly throw me a life preserver!

A few points I'd like to disagree with-

Shelby first-
I think you might be a little on the low side as far as what percent of our food supply is at least partially effected by migrant (illegals, whatever) workers. Having grown up in the Yellowstone River valley in Montana, I was in the heart of sugarbeet, wheat, cow, and (to a lesser extent) corn country. Every summer the migrant workers would come to work the beet fields or help with the irrigating, and there was always ranchers looking for fence repair, muck jobs, and other jobs the regular ranch hands couldn't get to. And these guys pass through my home country every year for 2 reasons. First, they work cheap, and most of the farms in my part of the world are barely making it hiring migrants making shit wages. Second, even if they could easily afford to pay a bunch of locals 8-10 bucks an hour to hoe weeds in the beet fields, they simply can't because there aren't enough people in the area to hire. This is a huge area with very few people. That being said, you just can't count the fruit crops in California when you're looking at your grocery bill.

And Superchuck-
I don't know who you've met in construction but before I went back to college I was a 3rd generation Ironworker, and most of the guys I worked with were pretty much family guys who owned homes, paid taxes, voted, and all that good stuff. They may have sucked down way too much beer but for the most part they were just regular guys who followed the rules like everybody else. I know there were guys who didn't pay taxes and claimed 8 dependants and all that shit but they were definitely in the minority.




I think both of you guys have some valid points and I'm not going to take a side because I don't really have any solutions to put out there. But I would like to say this...I called my grandpa tonight because he is the only person I know who has any history with immigration (he came from Austria as a baby), and the most interesting thing he told me was that most of the money his family made farming went back to the old country to help support his grandparents. Now it wasn't much and it probably would have helped the economy if it would have stayed in this country but you do what you can to support your family, and I'm sure that's what those illegals stacked 15 deep in a 2 bedroom apartment are trying to do.

And before you reply to this last statement about how my family probably came to this country through legal means and they obviously weren't here just to make some money and go home....I know it. That's why I can't easily choose a side and I think it's also why coming up with a satisfactory solution seems to be so difficult for so many people.

And I'll shut the fuck up now.

[SuperChuck]

I don't know who you've met in construction but before I went back to college I was a 3rd generation Ironworker, and most of the guys I worked with were pretty much family guys who owned homes, paid taxes, voted, and all that good stuff. They may have sucked down way too much beer but for the most part they were just regular guys who followed the rules like everybody else. I know there were guys who didn't pay taxes and claimed 8 dependants and all that shit but they were definitely in the minority.

Yeah, most of the guys I know doing construction jobs are young guys 18-25, no family or anything.