Middle east outcome

[SuperChuck]

But they are a terrorist organization, so isn't that a reason for concern?

Since 9/11, the US military as killed more civilians than every terror act combined. We conquered two sovereign nations and installed puppet governments. How does this not make the US a terrorist organization? We even named our bombing campaign against Iraq "Shock and Awe".

It's like we have some divine power to point fingers at who is a terrorist organization and who is not. If you ask the Lebanese, Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organization, the Israeli government is. If you ask the Palestinians (the majority of whom voted Hamas into power), Hamas isn't a terrorist organization, the Israelis are.

[Kenyth]

Resolution? Boy, you're optimistic! This area has been fighting for a very long time. None of the fanatics are particularly concerned with building an infrastructure to support a more civilized society. Right now, it's kind of like Vietnam. When, and IF, things calm down in Iraq, that country will be the new South Korea. An undesirable military assignment for the duration of forever. A foothold in the worlds oil pantry. How we'll ever maintain an adequate volunteer fighting force is beyond me. I hear enlistment bonuses are GREAT right now!

[WhiteWidow]

Since 9/11, the US military as killed more civilians than every terror act combined. We conquered two sovereign nations and installed puppet governments. How does this not make the US a terrorist organization? We even named our bombing campaign against Iraq "Shock and Awe".

It's like we have some divine power to point fingers at who is a terrorist organization and who is not. If you ask the Lebanese, Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organization, the Israeli government is. If you ask the Palestinians (the majority of whom voted Hamas into power), Hamas isn't a terrorist organization, the Israelis are.

Are you really trying to argue that Hamas and Hezbollah are not a bunch of scumbags?

If they are so great, why aren't they in the UN? If they aren't terrorists, and we are, we should probably move our families there because it will be so much better, right?

[SuperChuck]

Are you really trying to argue that Hamas and Hezbollah are not a bunch of scumbags?

If they are so great, why aren't they in the UN? If they aren't terrorists, and we are, we should probably move our families there because it will be so much better, right?

Are you arguing that we're not a bunch of scumbags?

We just tore apart two nations because we were angry. (Better yet, we removed two of our own puppet governments!)

For some reason, we always see any Israeli conflict from an Israeli point off view. As Kenyth said, these are old conflicts. Every time we see Israel "retaliating" for something, that thing was in retaliation for something Israel did, which was in retaliation for something else, which was in retaliation for... well, you get the picture.

I really wish we'd just tell Israel to STFU and sit down. They are supposed to be the responsible nation, they need to learn to deal without jumping to violence. In my opinion, they're just as bad as any of the "terrorist groups" they fight against, they just have bigger toys.

[WhiteWidow]

No, I don't really think most of us are scumbags, I think the people who decided to kill over 3,000 innocent people in a non-military building scumbags.

Unfortunately, people like that are out there, so they have to be hunted down and stopped.

[SuperChuck]

No, I don't really think most of us are scumbags, I think the people who decided to kill over 3,000 innocent people in a non-military building scumbags.

Unfortunately, people like that are out there, so they have to be hunted down and stopped.

How does 3000 compare to 40,000?

This is a cool site that's been tracking the number of civilian deaths since the US got involved in Iraq...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[Bkcloud114]

**thread hijack on**
You guys hear about the Tsunami that just hit Indonesia.... CNN has reported that Bush was behind it

**thread hijack off**

[Bkcloud114]

How does 3000 compare to 40,000?

This is a cool site that's been tracking the number of civilian deaths since the US got involved in Iraq...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Who gives a shit.........

[SuperChuck]

Who gives a shit.........

We pee on ourselves when 3000 of our own civilians are killed, but it's okay to kill 40,000 of someone else's civilians?

[WhiteWidow]

Everyone should read the book "Refined by Fire" by Brian and Mel Birdwell. If you can read that and still give a shit a about some nutcase with a diaper on his head, I would be truly impressed.

Even if that website were accurate or mentioned any reasons why it should be credible, I probably wouldn't care. At least we conduct precision military strikes on military targets, drop food and supplies to civilians, and even set our POW's up in a nice prison cell with three squares a day. Name another country in the history of warfare that has done anything like that. I guess maybe the Nazis making my grandpa march with a broken leg and no food or electricity for miles comes pretty close.

Nobody wants to be in a war - it sucks, people die, we all know that. But if we sit here on our ass, its only a matter of time before the enemy - which lacks any kind of logical thought or reasoning - is on our own doorstep. Look at France in WWII - they ignore the obivous psychopath next door, feel that they can sit on their ass all day, and all of a sudden you are occupied, and expect the rest of the world to bail you out. Is that what we're supposed to do?

I don't like the idea of people dying more than anyone else, but they way I see it, when you have all these weirdos running around you have to stop them, or at least try. I have a piece of the rubble from the Pentagon sitting here on my desk, and looking at that, its hard for me to justify taking no action. Do I know exactly what the correct action is? Hell no. Do we need to do more than nothing? Yes.

[toasty]

How does 3000 compare to 40,000?

This is a cool site that's been tracking the number of civilian deaths since the US got involved in Iraq...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Even if these "facts" were 100% correct, take a look at everything they count. These are all murders that have happened in Iraq. NOT deaths caused directly by Coalition Forces. The United States seems to be far more secure on the streets and just for 2003 and 2004 there were 32,719 homicides in the United States.

No matter what anyone says, neither US nor any other country are truly going to influence what happens in this area of the Middle East. In this part of the world, Muslims are born hating Jews and the state of Israel. And the same is bred into the Jews to hate the Muslims. No treaties or agreements are going to fix the situation. The only way for there to be true stabilization without a war is if Isreal were to give up all of her land completely and dissolve itself. However, Israel has the right to exist. It is their land. And no, I'm not referencing that to the old Isreal from biblical times, I am talking the recent 60's Israel. They took the land and now it is theirs. If this were to have happened as a Muslim state and not a Jewish state, there would have been no public outcry. There would not be hundreds and hundreds of "martyrs" every year to push and take back the motherland.

Isreal is definitely responding harshly to the kidnappings of its soldiers. But what if they hadn't responded like they are now? That would mean they would have to learn to accept their soldiers being kidnapped as a normal occurance. And honestly, if I were in the soldier's position, I would want my country to respond as Israel has.

[SuperChuck]

Even if these "facts" were 100% correct, take a look at everything they count. These are all murders that have happened in Iraq. NOT deaths caused directly by Coalition Forces.

In a few more posts you'll see me saying I wish they had included only civilian deaths directly attributed to "Coalition" (well, mostly US) attacks.

I do know that it eclipsed the 3000 mark before the occupation (I want to say it was before the ground campaign started, but I'm not certain).

I can see their point in indirectly blaming the occupation for things like suicide bombings, but it's much more important to see directly attributable deaths. Indirectly attributable deaths are a nice sidebar or footnote, but should not be the focus...

(Actually, I don't think I read the details screen before posting the first time; I stopped watching that page after the number went over 3000; at that point I don't think we had even started a ground campaign; yes, I realize how many semicolons I used in this sentence)

[SuperChuck]

No fair editing posts while I'm replying...

In this part of the world, Muslims are born hating Jews and the state of Israel. And the same is bred into the Jews to hate the Muslims.

That's largely a generalization. Your average guy on the street wants to make a decent living, feed his family, raise his kids. It's the leaders and radicals you have to look out for. It's a little like saying everyone south of the Mason-Dixon is racist and in the KKK. That's really a minority, but they're loud.

Given the history of war in the region, it's an understandable hatred. There's been so much back and forth between Israel and other nations. Just in this little conflict in Lebanon, the Lebanese hate the Israelis for bombing the crap out of them, and the Israelis are mad at the Lebanese and Hezbollah for kidnapping their soldiers (and therefore feel justified in attacking Lebanon), and Hezbollah (and most Lebanese at the time) felt justified in kidnapping those soldiers because the Israelis have some of their soldiers. I'm sure it goes further back, too.

However, Israel has the right to exist. It is their land. And no, I'm not referencing that to the old Isreal from biblical times, I am talking the recent 60's Israel. They took the land and now it is theirs.

Weel, the WWII Allies kind of had something to do with the creation of Israel...