Evolution...not really political, maybe controversial

[SmokinDVM]

The Bible is a history book and a guide for christian life and religious practice, not a science manual. It was written, compiled, and translated by many human hands throughout history. The science and record keeping we have available now simply wasn't there back then (obviously), and the general population was lucky to be literate, much less educated. Much of it was originally written for simple people with simple language and using simple tools. The fact that it doesn't match up with modern scientific examination doesn't change the message or the spirit of what is in there. There are many lessons to be taken from its pages without worrying about whether every story actually occurred the way it was written.

So we can conclude from your post that the bible is an inaccurate writing at best, and a total pile of bs is not out of the running.
When the religious zealots, and their ignorant followers, stop attacking proven scientific principles of which they have no real understanding, and stop holding up their particular form of religion and magic as a scientific irrefutable fact, I'll quit calling them on their bullshit.

[CoventryCat86]

So we can conclude from your post that the bible is an inaccurate writing at best, and a total pile of bs is not out of the running.
When the religious zealots, and their ignorant followers, stop attacking proven scientific principles of which they have no real understanding, and stop holding up their particular form of religion and magic as a scientific irrefutable fact, I'll quit calling them on their bullshit.

I'm with Barry on this one.

[Kenyth]

So we can conclude from your post that the bible is an inaccurate writing at best, and a total pile of bs is not out of the running.
When the religious zealots, and their ignorant followers, stop attacking proven scientific principles of which they have no real understanding, and stop holding up their particular form of religion and magic as a scientific irrefutable fact, I'll quit calling them on their bullshit.

How you see the Bilble is totally a matter of personal choice and faith. According to the Bible, God works completely outside the rules and boundaries of our known universe. That makes it impossible to prove or disprove. That also makes it a complete matter of faith.

I do agree that religion should stay away from science and research. To try and go against scientific fact and theory that has been held up by the research of innumerable great minds throughout history is a sure way to make yourself look foolish.

The Bible has it's value as a spiritual guide. That's just not something you seem to place value on. If you don't believe, then you don't believe.

[SmokinDVM]

How you see the Bilble is totally a matter of personal choice and faith. According to the Bible, God works completely outside the rules and boundaries of our known universe. That makes it impossible to prove or disprove. That also makes it a complete matter of faith.

I do agree that religion should stay away from science and research. To try and go against scientific fact and theory that has been held up by the research of innumerable great minds throughout history is a sure way to make yourself look foolish.

The Bible has it's value as a spiritual guide. That's just not something you seem to place value on. If you don't believe, then you don't believe.

[mills]

First, I avoided this thread until now because I thought that it would quickly degenerate into a name-calling match, but it's actually quite well-behaved. Now wish I had taken part because I want to reply to just about every post (except for the cheese.) Second, I'm impressed that we have one person claiming science as a tool to keep the rabble in check, and another claiming religion as the same thing. I guess you're damned either way if you're not one of the bourgeouis.

snip... By infusing the masses with the idea that they are nothing more than a glorified monkey, they are able to more easily roll out their plan a step at a time. What they don't want is a large group of people who believe that they are made in the image of God, each with inalienable rights, and irrevocable worth as a human being.

We are entering a new era which will have monumental changes in the way we eat, breath, and procreate. Open your eyes. Peak oil, the Patriot Act, environmental nuts, Martial Law, population reduction, etc. All these ideas are setting the stage for a drama which will completely revamp society in the blink of an eye.

snip... The bible is a work of fiction designed to keep the simple-minded in line. But the bible really isn't a discussion that would be on topic for this thread.

Hershey, I might be misunderstanding you, but I found it interesting that you threw 'environmental nuts' in with Orwellian government stuff. If there's one thing that I think would suffer at the hands of a tyranny it would be the environment. I don't think they would be on the same side.

I'm Creationist, but you can't refute natural selection. Whether that means all life evolved from the primordial ooze, I don't know, but the strongest ones in a species will pass on their genes more often than not.

Finally, I hate the term Intelligent Design, because it makes no sense outside of religion. I agree with most that religion and politics should not hold hands here in the US of A.

PS Somebody should start a gay marriage thread ;)

[ReV]

I'm Creationist, but you can't refute natural selection. Whether that means all life evolved from the primordial ooze, I don't know, but the strongest ones in a species will pass on their genes more often than not.

The two dont contradict... the only theory that is REALLY opposed to creationism is spontaneous generation... basically one says that an omnipotent being 'God' created life, the other that life formed from nothing... from that point on, unless you decide to take the time frames mentioned in the bible literally, they dont contradict... it says God created this and that, but it never said that evolution and natural selection weren't the tools which God used to create this and that... i think its funny how people put limits on a being that is supposedly omnipotent and as such, a time frame-- say 7 days-- would mean nothing to... God would exist outside of a limitation such as time, and viewed in that manner, the theories dont contradict. By the way, not an attack at you, just my view on the situation, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I cant tell exactly what you are saying, but it seems that you imply creationism and natural selection conflict on some level and i know alot of people DO believe just that.

[mills]

The two dont contradict... the only theory that is REALLY opposed to creationism is spontaneous generation... basically one says that an omnipotent being 'God' created life, the other that life formed from nothing... from that point on, unless you decide to take the time frames mentioned in the bible literally, they dont contradict... it says God created this and that, but it never said that evolution and natural selection weren't the tools which God used to create this and that... i think its funny how people put limits on a being that is supposedly omnipotent and as such, a time frame-- say 7 days-- would mean nothing to... God would exist outside of a limitation such as time, and viewed in that manner, the theories dont contradict. By the way, not an attack at you, just my view on the situation, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I cant tell exactly what you are saying, but it seems that you imply creationism and natural selection conflict on some level and i know alot of people DO believe just that.

Don't worry, I don't feel attacked. I didn't mean to imply that the two couldn't coexist, I am was more trying to get at what you said in your last sentence. Good points by the way. I don't know what is harder to believe, that an omnipotent being created the world, or that enough molecules randomly collided billions of years ago to create life.

[DPB]

Hi long time lurker but posting for first time.
Complexity arose from simplisity a long non random gradual process. to see who we are and where we came from you need to regress,evolution and natural selection has been proven over and over again through the abundance of eviedence that support the facts.to go back to the begining to see what spark the beginings of life on earth right now science doesnt really know but there are working on it just because science may not have the answer now doesnt mean we fill the gaps with god because god is not anymore of an answer than not knowing ,there is nothing to be afraid of not knowing but give it time with the ever advancement in science and tecnology that one day we will have the answer .stop using 1st century thinking. we know why religon was created and where it came from.also to say that god exists outside of our known universe or is beyond space and time is a cop out.that just makes it to easy not having to answer the question of who created god. if god is such a complex being than it had to come from somthing else.alot of things can not be proved or disproved ,golden unicorns ,invisable purple dinosaurs easter bunny, santa but it doesnt make it true.just because somthing cant be proved or disproved doesnt make it TRUE.
As far as the bible being a spitual guide, well i question that also, then your cherry picking the hell out of it because there are alot of nasty things in that 1st century book. stoning women if they are not virgins etc.. we can all cherry pick the bible for all the good things but that doesnt make it a good book to live your life.there are plent of book out now that are much more updated to live your life in a spirtual sense if you refer to spirtual as connected to our world and universe.Anything religon has to offer it got from us ,morailty came from us not the other way around ,good people do god things bad people do bad things.
I can go on and on here about biodeversity and so on but and am a reader not a writer and not that articulate in writing about science.
check out richarddawkins.net if you want plent of good stuff there.
and i always find it interesting that everyone uses science every day in thier lives but the minute it challeges thier belif sytem they reject it ,amazes me simply does.
take care
and where can i get some padrons 64s online cheap lol
peace
Doug

[DPB]

sorry for any typos it was early when i wrote this and i am to lazy to edit ..
lol
take care peace
besides i am sure you get my point
doug

[ReV]

Or you could just completely disregard religion...

stop using 1st century thinking. we know why religon was created and where it came from.also to say that god exists outside of our known universe or is beyond space and time is a cop out.

Awfully bold statement, but there are a few problems:

a) by telling people that they're straight up wrong, you're only going to make them more belligerent... (also i like how you dismiss the religious argument as being as absurd as "invisable purple dinosaurs" ... i mean, you're entitled to your views, but you'll never win an argument like that... might as well just scream 'NO!' while the other guy screams 'YES!', you'll get just as far. The only way you'd win this argument with a religious zealot is if they just got tired of listening to you talk and gave up...)

b) Never said God IS anything... I said that a being that is supposedly omnipotent and capable of creating reality as we know it would most certainly exist outside of that reality, and thus time and space.

c) i stick by my statement... if a being did exist that were in fact omnipotent and did in fact create the universe as we know it... that being would have had to have existed before said universe and thus able to exist outside of it... not so much a cop out as a logical progression
Why would a god who created time and space then be limited by his own creation... come on.

[ReV]

Now go introduce yourself... jumping right into a religious debate isn't the best way to make a first impression on this board... if you've been lurking you should know that too.

[DPB]

living outside space and time? Now your inventing realms.
If a god exists then the universe if it was created would look like a different universe then we live in now.To try to prove or disprove god is like trying to prove or disprove that a invisible purple dinosaur exists, But again it doesn't mean that its true.But its not up to me to try to disprove its existence but up to whoever to prove its existence.without saying it cant be done that to me is a cop out and just to easy because something cant be explained just don't jump in and use fairy tales to try and explain it. Plus it still leaves a wide door open of if god created everything what created god? that would be a logical progression or regression.
Doug

[mills]

Hi long time lurker but posting for first time.
Complexity arose from simplisity a long non random gradual process. to see who we are and where we came from you need to regress,evolution and natural selection has been proven over and over again through the abundance of eviedence that support the facts.to go back to the begining to see what spark the beginings of life on earth right now science doesnt really know but there are working on it just because science may not have the answer now doesnt mean we fill the gaps with god because god is not anymore of an answer than not knowing ,there is nothing to be afraid of not knowing but give it time with the ever advancement in science and tecnology that one day we will have the answer .stop using 1st century thinking. we know why religon was created and where it came from.also to say that god exists outside of our known universe or is beyond space and time is a cop out.that just makes it to easy not having to answer the question of who created god. if god is such a complex being than it had to come from somthing else.alot of things can not be proved or disproved ,golden unicorns ,invisable purple dinosaurs easter bunny, santa but it doesnt make it true.just because somthing cant be proved or disproved doesnt make it TRUE.
As far as the bible being a spitual guide, well i question that also, then your cherry picking the hell out of it because there are alot of nasty things in that 1st century book. stoning women if they are not virgins etc.. we can all cherry pick the bible for all the good things but that doesnt make it a good book to live your life.there are plent of book out now that are much more updated to live your life in a spirtual sense if you refer to spirtual as connected to our world and universe.Anything religon has to offer it got from us ,morailty came from us not the other way around ,good people do god things bad people do bad things.
I can go on and on here about biodeversity and so on but and am a reader not a writer and not that articulate in writing about science.
check out richarddawkins.net if you want plent of good stuff there.
and i always find it interesting that everyone uses science every day in thier lives but the minute it challeges thier belif sytem they reject it ,amazes me simply does.
take care
and where can i get some padrons 64s online cheap lol
peace
Doug

Normally I think CC is a little too anal with the spelling and grammar, but damn, this just hurts the eyes.

[DPB]

Science and religion can not coexist together either one is right and the other is wrong .Plus depending in which religion you grew up with gives a different story on how everything started.
If you were born into a christian family then you belive that story if it was hindu then its that story ,jewish etc..
What makes science story unique is that its story has the evidence to tell its story.
Either god (which ever god you believe in)started everything and again what started that god,or the universe and life as we know it was a slow non random process which took billions of years to happen.the probabilities of that happening are low but yet here we are talking about ,gods story is very improbable do to the lack(or none of) of evidence to show how it created everything.Your right you never want to get into a screaming match with a religous person but using clear rational thought and basic observation you would think would be enough ,there are plenty of books in the bookstore that tells science story,hawkins ,Segan, frans de hall ,richard dawkins ,eo wilson ,einstien etc...all books written in modern language in modern times within the 20th and 21st century using the advancements of technology to explain our and the universes origins.lets keep the thinking in these centuries is all i am saying.
Life did not begin from nothing there is always regress you just need to read up on the information that is public knowledge and is out there,from amino acids and proteins being introduced to nitrites to start a simple life. evolution and natural selection takes off from there as far as life on earth this is the best explanation we have right now with the over abundance of evidence given to prove this. You either except these facts as truths or you dont . my problem is that religion makes one satisfied without truly understanding the world we live in. To say god just did it then what just did god.
Peace to all
Doug
and you are right i was rude not to introduce myself in the proper way but i usually come here just to read up on cigars and saw this thread due to i have a great interest on the subject. And i usually do not like to post on any forum but just felt i wanted to add my 2 cents of thought .So i appologize for jumping in like i did and wont happen again on another subject . But I am Doug from NY and I love cigars padrons i live for....

[DPB]

Mills LOL i do apologize for my poor grammar skills i try to be as articulate as possible but i always sucked with grammar . so just try to bear with it .
Sheeet i am just a cable guy Plus when i wrote that first post it was early in the morning and that didnt help either.
Doug

[ReV]

A being that is omnipotent, by its very definition, cannot have a limited existence. What you are saying is that a omnipotent being cannot exist... what i'm saying is that if one did exist, it would most certainly exist outside the limitations of time and space... We aren't discussing the plausibility of a 'God' here anyway, we are discussing evolution... the thing you're missing is that you can scream logic all you want, but some who believes in said God will continue to do so... you wont convince them otherwise, so the next best thing is to at least make them understand that science doesn't contradict religion... which it doesn't. Its really a very simple argument, and weather you believe or not, i would hope a person of science could at least understand what i'm saying here. At some point in the tracing back of evolution, there was nothing, and then, there was something... call it what you will, the big bang, the first day, whatever... the point is, many people on the religious side of things refuse to admit existence could have happened in any other way than what is described in the bible... but there is no reason what was described in the bible couldn't just be short hand for the entire big bang/evolution theory. If you get someone who believes in God to accept the Big bang theory, even if you have to add that God created the big bang to the beginning of the story... is it not a step in the right direction? Even you have to admit that you have to teach people how to read before you teach them the underlying themes in Shakespeare... Anyrate, your argument doesn't seem much more open minded than that of the extreme religious zealots... evidence or not, you're all just basing your argument on what someone else told you, no one knows for sure... and have you noticed yet that i was never arguing with you? my whole initial argument was about the narrow mindedness of an extremist religious argument...

[DPB]

I am basing my argument on what scientific evidence has shown us not what someone told me.We do know for sure what happened up to a point,then it goes into the whole quantum theory of multiverses before the big bang,Everything works out mathematically just we cant comprehend the answer even though it works out on paper .all i am saying god does not.because science does not have the answer now doesnt mean it wont 100 years from now.I am not afraid of not knowing its ok for me,for one day we will know or we wont know and thats ok also.But i will not use 1st century fairy tales in its place.I also agree with you.To try and have a religious person try to understand this you cant go to the last chapter in the book you have to teach them to read first .We only know what information we have been exposed to.growing up in a family that is totally religious of course thats all they will know and it will be hard to try to convince them otherwise until you lay out all the evidence and facts and try to explain slowly.I apologize if it seems like i was arguing with you. i was trying to get my point across.And I understand yours.
I also do not really care what people do in the privacy of their own homes,pray to whoever you want to. Just dont push your personal belief system into politics and policies that will effect my life.and when i say "your" i dont mean you personally just those who wish to do the above. Even though i dont care about what people do in private. religion does effect public policy and that bothers me.
You are correct that this was about evolution and there are plenty of things to discuss on that alone but once religion "creationism" ID or whatever got involved then yes God is brought into this conversation and if some feel god started the whole thing then i will debate that.If evolution will be discussed then lets stick to that and what the evidence shows us.
If you really want to learn more on this there are plenty of books in the bookstore on evolution that can be read just go to the earth science section and have a ball.Not sure which books? www.richarddawkins.net would be a good start to check out.
I am also very open minded. If you can prove to me through scientific evidence enough evidence and facts that i can accept as true that a "god" exists then i will. right now there is no such evidence to do so.Science is not rigid its always changing as new evidence comes in .its great to see new discoveries to disprove old ones I have no problem being wrong if the evidence shows this.Its always great to see new ways at looking at things. monotheism or polytheism is not new, same old story. and the gaps that some try to fill are quickly closing.
Well i guess its like the old saying"its easier to convert a scientist in to believing in god then a religious person not to"

This type of debate can go on and on ..but thats what makes it fun.makes you think a lot harder about things also.
Also now that i have posted here i hope this doesn't effect discussions on cigars in other post and just because some of you may think differently than some other including myself doesn't mean we still cant be friends on the forums.
I look forward to discussing cigars with you all.
Take care
Doug

[ReV]

Again, I'm not trying to convince you anything about if there is or isn't a 'God', just stating what some people may believe about their 'God' and what would be required if said 'God' did exist... consider it a hypothetical situation. Anyrate, on the following two notes, i think its time to turn this topic into another controversial one::

PS Somebody should start a gay marriage thread ;)

dont push your personal belief system into politics and policies that will effect my life.

... i feel similarly on this topic, anyone else?



PS. DPB... have you read back to Hershey's posts? i think the two of you should get along great.

[DPB]

LOL I have read herseys post im sure he is a nice guy thats all i have to say about that.
As far as gay marriage, who cares.
again does not effect my life.let people do what they want just not my cup of tea.I like females, enough said.
Peace
Doug

[HersheyWalker]

DPB, please show some common courtesy and edit your posts with CAPITAL letters and proper spelling and grammer. We are all adults here and although your mental faculties are accustom and comfortable processing 'teen' speak, the rest of us aren't. So once again, post proper.

As an update, I've been spending a lot of time lately studying for a CSET exam I have this saturday, and haven't been able to post in this thread. I'm just letting you all know that I have a lot to say with regard to almost every new post, and I'll be on it in a two weeks or so.

In the mean time, carry on