Cubans

[guado]

I REALLY HATE when people ask "You ever had a Ko-Hee-Buh?"

I friggin HATE it. I have plenty of cubans but I also have plenty of NC's. They are good if they are what you are looking for.

Downers to cubans-most need alot of time to be worth smoking.

NC's sometimes need age but alot of them are AWESOME right out of the box.

It's mainly the need to expand your knowledge. I will also agree to saying there are cubans that are as nasty as cheapo NC. I had a 98 H. Upmann last week and I swear there were moments that I thought I tasted shrimp...ugh.

[ggiese]

'98 Sancho Panza Non-Plus or Trinidad Fundadore...



But as a friend of mine once said, "If you've never had it - you'll never miss it..."

[DeeDubya]

Cuba grows and exports what, sugar cane (sugar), coffee and tobacco? Not much else. Although Cuba still sells many cigars to the rest of the world wouldn't you think that a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc.? What is sold as "Cuban seed tobacco" is exactly that. Only it is actually grown in Cuba, shipped to another country where it is processed and then exported to the US.
Am I dreaming here? If so, wake me up and tell me why not?

[chefchris]

Cuba grows and exports what, sugar cane (sugar), coffee and tobacco? Not much else. Although Cuba still sells many cigars to the rest of the world wouldn't you think that a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc.? What is sold as "Cuban seed tobacco" is exactly that. Only it is actually grown in Cuba, shipped to another country where it is processed and then exported to the US.
Am I dreaming here? If so, wake me up and tell me why not?

From what I understand as Cuban Seed is that the original crop came from Cuba in the exodus of all the farmers many years ago. They loaded up as much seed as they could get and high tailed it outta there. So almost everything is cuban seed. However, soil plays a HUGE part in the taste of a cigar as well where (globally) it's grown. Try a Sumatra wrapper and tell me that taste like a Cuban wrapper. It's a much spicier wrapper due to the conditions it's grown in. Same thing with many others, Conneticut, Cameroon, etc.

And if I remember correctly, I'm almost positive Cuba does not sell their tobacco to other countries for their own cigar blends.

[ashauler]

From what I understand as Cuban Seed is that the original crop came from Cuba in the exodus of all the farmers many years ago. They loaded up as much seed as they could get and high tailed it outta there. So almost everything is cuban seed. However, soil plays a HUGE part in the taste of a cigar as well where (globally) it's grown. Try a Sumatra wrapper and tell me that taste like a Cuban wrapper. It's a much spicier wrapper due to the conditions it's grown in. Same thing with many others, Conneticut, Cameroon, etc.

And if I remember correctly, I'm almost positive Cuba does not sell their tobacco to other countries for their own cigar blends.

From everything I have ever read or seen, I think Chris is correct here. Cuban tobacco is tightly controlled by the government.

While it sounds plausible that some tobacco could find its way out of the country, I highly doubt that any "organized" way of secretly using cuban origin tobacco in cigars exists.

[FunkyCold5]

Cuba grows and exports what, sugar cane (sugar), coffee and tobacco? Not much else. Although Cuba still sells many cigars to the rest of the world wouldn't you think that a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc.? What is sold as "Cuban seed tobacco" is exactly that. Only it is actually grown in Cuba, shipped to another country where it is processed and then exported to the US.
Am I dreaming here? If so, wake me up and tell me why not?

Cuban seed is what it actually is, not the leaf. And ChefChris gave a great explanation! IT depends on soil, weather conditions, and other factors to produce that distinct taste. If the leaf was exported to another contry, the country HAS to specify where the leaf/binder/wrapper came from. AND if it came from CUBA, it will NOT go into the US. So, exporting tobacco leaves will be mute. SO, what manufacturers try to do is get the sead and plant it in Honduras, Nicaragua, Dominican Rebublic, etc and advertise the cuban seed part as a selling point, when in actuality it's a totally different end-product from a cigar you can get from Cuba.

Cubans are illegal, and the experiences I've shared actually came from a Cuban Pen-pal of mine (Pepe), and not my own.

[DeeDubya]

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar...22,431,00.html

[ggiese]

Cuba grows and exports what, sugar cane (sugar), coffee and tobacco? Not much else. Although Cuba still sells many cigars to the rest of the world wouldn't you think that a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc.? What is sold as "Cuban seed tobacco" is exactly that. Only it is actually grown in Cuba, shipped to another country where it is processed and then exported to the US.
Am I dreaming here? If so, wake me up and tell me why not?

Ummm... No...

"Cuban Seed" tobacco means that the seeds used to start the plant were originally from Cuba. However, the seed is now planted and harvested outside of Cuba. Supposedly these seeds were taken out of the country at the time of the Cuban revolution (or sometime thereafter) by Cuban tobacco growers looking to make a better life for themselves outside of the Cuban society.

The idea that "excess Cuban tobacco" being sent to other countries and making it's way into US destined cigars is a myth. Just as the "Pre-Embargo" tobacco that's "been stored in warehouses since before the Cuban revolution and forgotten until now" stories are myths.

Nope - Cuban tobacco makes it into Cuban cigars. "Cuban seed" tobacco grown in the DR, Nicaragua, Honduras, etc. makes it into the NC cigars...

...it is a nice dream, though... Although I personally tend to like to dream about blondes on the beach...

[DeeDubya]

Just checking. Like the article from Cigar Aficionado (link about 4 posts back) about the Canary Islands and them buying tobacco from Cuba and rolling it into their cigars it seems that it would be hard to control.

"The chief factor that differentiates Canary Island cigars from most others is the strong tradition of using Cuban tobacco in their blends."
~Cigar Aficionado~

[nhcigarfan]

They sell tobacco to be used in other cigars. Up until a couple of years ago Villager boxes has the "Contains Cuban Tobacco" blacked out for Sale in American and claimed not to use cuban tobacco only in the cigars sold in the US.

[DeeDubya]

They sell tobacco to be used in other cigars. Up until a couple of years ago Villager boxes has the "Contains Cuban Tobacco" blacked out for Sale in American and claimed not to use cuban tobacco only in the cigars sold in the US.

Interesting, Thanks

[basil]

Ummm... No...

"Cuban Seed" tobacco means that the seeds used to start the plant were originally from Cuba. However, the seed is now planted and harvested outside of Cuba. Supposedly these seeds were taken out of the country at the time of the Cuban revolution (or sometime thereafter) by Cuban tobacco growers looking to make a better life for themselves outside of the Cuban society.

The idea that "excess Cuban tobacco" being sent to other countries and making it's way into US destined cigars is a myth. Just as the "Pre-Embargo" tobacco that's "been stored in warehouses since before the Cuban revolution and forgotten until now" stories are myths.

Nope - Cuban tobacco makes it into Cuban cigars. "Cuban seed" tobacco grown in the DR, Nicaragua, Honduras, etc. makes it into the NC cigars...

...it is a nice dream, though... Although I personally tend to like to dream about blondes on the beach...

Chris, George, and maybe others have suggested that tobacco grown from Cuban seed outside of Cuba is from seed that was taken when the country transitioned to being virtually state-run.

I'll bet not. While seeds can remain viable for decades and even centuries, after a half century the (inevitable decrease of) viability would not sustain commercial purposes (enough to annually plant a few or many acres). And, after a Cuban seed is sprouted in non-Cuban soil, seeds from the resulting plant would then be non-Cuban.

Without researching it, I'm thinking that the only way non-Cuban brands can maintain that their tobacco is from Cuban seed is to buy that Cuban seed in order to use it for each new crop.

If this is accurate, I guess it follows that the US embargo of Cuban products stops at the gene.

To answer DeeDubya, I think the illegality of the Cuban cigar is a huge draw. Especially for folks who don't really smoke cigars. As others above have said, there are good, bad, and ugly cigars from any country that produces them, including Cuba. What's kinda fucked up in my mind is that an authentic Cuban, even if it is limited edition, aged 10 years, grown at the foot of a sacred, ancient volcano, and from Fidel's personal stash, it is completely goddamn wasted on a non or very occasional smoker because this person doesn't know a decent cigar from an over-hyped piece of CAO (or what have you) shit.

Now for a cigar smoker, well, and again, this is just me speculating, the real McCoy - one of any number of brands and fucking spare me the ko-hee-bahs too, with 3-4 years on it, on the strong side of medium, a good draw, with a diet Dr. Pepper in the back yard on a Sunday afternoon (and hell yeah it would add to the experience if somewhere on the band were the words "Cuba" or "Habano") . . . Well, fuck me. That would be fucking perfect.

[ggiese]

Chris, George, and maybe others have suggested that tobacco grown from Cuban seed outside of Cuba is from seed that was taken when the country transitioned to being virtually state-run.

I'll bet not. While seeds can remain viable for decades and even centuries, after a half century the (inevitable decrease of) viability would not sustain commercial purposes (enough to annually plant a few or many acres). And, after a Cuban seed is sprouted in non-Cuban soil, seeds from the resulting plant would then be non-Cuban.

Without researching it, I'm thinking that the only way non-Cuban brands can maintain that their tobacco is from Cuban seed is to buy that Cuban seed in order to use it for each new crop.

If this is accurate, I guess it follows that the US embargo of Cuban products stops at the gene.

Oh, Ted... Linky...

[basil]

Oh, Ted... Linky...

Fascinating material - thanks for link.

This is what I thought, that presently-used seed often has a Cuban pedigree. The guy taking credit for the development of these seeds says:

"My specialty was the development and improvement of genetically superior seed strains . . ."

and:

"During my consulting career, I collected a cache of genetically pure seeds ... 47 varieties in all. These seeds are the foundation for our present crops."

- John Vogel

What is troubling about this site though is using language designed to mislead the reader into thinking that their crop seed is actually pre-embargo.

Statements like:

"These almost-forgotten pre-Castro seeds exist nowhere else in the world."

and,

"Microphotograph of two Pinar del Rio seeds, before germination ... 16,000 seeds per gram, with 97% germination." (97% is agriculture industry standard and I'll bet you a Lusitania Vogel's crop seeds are not 60 years old),

made on the web site, lead the reader to believe that these seeds are some kind of holy grail, and that authentic Cuban cigars and/or something that duplicates the Cuban taste can somehow be produced from these seeds.

What tells me Vogel is selling snake oil is that he discounts virtually all other factors - geographic, soil, curing, harvest cycle, you name it, and says that seed/genetics is all. It would be wrong-headed for anyone to say this. Vogel, as an agronomist, is telling a bald-faced lie.

While I have no reason to doubt that a lot of time and energy went into r&d, producing and developing the cigars sold on this site, the bottom line is that all this site is intended to do is sell cigars, which are Costa Rican cigars, and not Cuban, regardless of where the seed stock came from 6 decades ago.

caveat emptor

[ggiese]

Cuba grows and exports what, sugar cane (sugar), coffee and tobacco? Not much else. Although Cuba still sells many cigars to the rest of the world wouldn't you think that a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc.? What is sold as "Cuban seed tobacco" is exactly that. Only it is actually grown in Cuba, shipped to another country where it is processed and then exported to the US.
Am I dreaming here? If so, wake me up and tell me why not?

Okay - you've established the Canary Islands and a few other small outlets have at some time or another put Cuban tobacco into their their products - but there is no information to support your question concerning "a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc."

So the answer is still - NO

[DeeDubya]

Okay - you've established the Canary Islands and a few other small outlets have at some time or another put Cuban tobacco into their their products - but there is no information to support your question concerning "a lot (I mean mucho grande quantities) of surplus tobacco is regularly sold to Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, etc."

So the answer is still - NO

I believe that my original question (it was a question???) was quite appropriately answered. chefchris and nhcigarfan were thorough and very informative. I don't know a lot about the Cuban trade so I speculate as to what might be. I'm not sure why you would like to drive it home one more time. But hey, if you feel better now then...

[BigMacFU]

Deedub, Giese is just informing you that the canary island thing may stick, but the rest doesn't. He wasn't mean about it, trust me, that ain't anything close to mean on this or any other cigar board. So, don't get the panties in a bunch over something like this and think Giese is attacking you and your ego.

[DeeDubya]

Gotcha, I'm not the best communicator and somewhat of a squareheaded German. But everything is cool and I love to join in the fun. If I get snippy just kick me in the ass.

[ggiese]

I believe that my original question (it was a question???) was quite appropriately answered. chefchris and nhcigarfan were thorough and very informative. I don't know a lot about the Cuban trade so I speculate as to what might be. I'm not sure why you would like to drive it home one more time. But hey, if you feel better now then...

You shouldn't alter your post after you post it - even to remove the "extremely foul language". You might not like the answer - and if you're man enough to toss around foul words - be man enough to stick by them and the consequences they bring. Maybe you won't be so inclined to toss around that nonsense the next time you feel so smited...

You tossed out a question - which (admittedly) was answered in some sort of fashion or another - although not fully accurately. The question is one that is oftentimes circulated. Even worse - the "theory" is many times stated as fact - nearly as often as the "grassy knoll" theory. Bothersome to those that keep seeing is circulate, because some fools latch on to it (this being the Internet) as the God-Spoken truth!

I suppose the accepted answer would be one that would make you feel better (i.e. - there IS Cuban tobacco in the cigars you smoke - WOO-HOO!!!). While some (as you say) have so "eloquently" answered your question - the question continued to remain comletely unanswered (except for my unacknowledged, lowly, horrible, "god forbid it's true!" opinion). Tough as it is to accept - The reality - nothing could be further from the truth...

I believe (unless someone has something else to offer) - the answer is still NO.

[DeeDubya]

"You shouldn't alter your post after you post it - even to remove the "extremely foul language". You might not like the answer - and if you're man enough to toss around foul words - be man enough to stick by them and the consequences they bring. Maybe you won't be so inclined to toss around that nonsense the next time you feel so smited... "

I did not remove foul language, actually I didn't change anything, but it got your attention! I'm not into calling names but if I change my mind you will be the first to know.