New here-Cuban ?'s

[ggiese]

For the record, I specifically avoided a car comparison so as not to bring up the painful Yugo memory.

Of course a Padron rep would be able to "justify" a 26 dollar disparity...

Maybe I'm reading into this, but I'm sensing (because you put justify into quotation marks) that you think the Padron rep would not be able to adequately "justify" a 26 dollar disparity for you, no matter what the "facts" were. (...other than, perhaps, "...because we can charge that much". Right?!?)

...and just so you know - I also had to "justify" buying a "luxury" car when I coulda bought a Chevy Impala. (Please don't tell the spousal unit - but I used the fact that they no longer manufacture Yugo's as a justification for my "eccentric" purchase).

I know Lew Rothman is a poster child for justifying "cheap" - but I do believe there's more to the story than Lew tells it...

[badwhale]

Maybe I'm reading into this, but I'm sensing (because you put justify into quotation marks) that you think the Padron rep would not be able to adequately "justify" a 26 dollar disparity for you, no matter what the "facts" were. (...other than, perhaps, "...because we can charge that much". Right?!?)

...and just so you know - I also had to "justify" buying a "luxury" car when I coulda bought a Chevy Impala. (Please don't tell the spousal unit - but I used the fact that they no longer manufacture Yugo's as a justification for my "eccentric" purchase).

I know Lew Rothman is a poster child for justifying "cheap" - but I do believe there's more to the story than Lew tells it...

Yes, you're right, I would take anything a cigar rep says with a grain of salt.

I don't like to use words like "cheap" or "luxury", but rather "value."

PS, I knew I typed S.T. Dupont wrong on the fly.

[badwhale]

Oh, and when I was mowing the lawn, I thought of an example that hits closer to home for me, and maybe is a good comparison. Craftsman wrenches vs. Snap-on wrenches.

Both are forged steel with chrome finish. Both have lifetime guarantees, but a Craftsman is significantly less than the Snap-on. Why is this?

They both will tighten, or loosen nuts / bolts. This is not subjective, so why is Snap-on or Matco the "professionals" choice over the weekend warrior Craftsman?

[Devil Doc]

I'll tell you a story, Will. I don't know how germane it is, but I like telling stories. When I decided I wanted to take up sporting clays, I bought a $2000 Beretta. I won a lot of tournaments with it and shot myself into AA. I then thought I could justify purchasing a Perazzi SC3, Considerably more money. Actually, a lot more money. I never again won a shoot, but a day on the course doesn't go by when someone asks to just hold the gun.

Doc

[badwhale]

I'll tell you a story, Will. I don't know how germane it is, but I like telling stories. When I decided I wanted to take up sporting clays, I bought a $2000 Beretta. I won a lot of tournaments with it and shot myself into AA. I then thought I could justify purchasing a Perazzi SC3, Considerably more money. Actually, a lot more money. I never again won a shoot, but a day on the course doesn't go by when someone asks to just hold the gun.

Doc

True. I've hit more claybirds with my Remington 870 express than my Silver Pidgeon. I don't look up or down at what people decide to spend their money on. Some stuff I can relate to, others not so much.

The real question here is in the secret dark vaults of manufacturing overhead & marketing voodoo, how much more does it take to make a Padron 80th than a 3000, or a Snappy ratcheting wrench than a Craftsman, or a Lexus over an Avalon, or a Perazzi over a Beretta.

I suspect as consumers, we'll never know.

[kevin7]

As long as my clothes are made by 3 rd world forced child labor I'm happy

[ggiese]

Oh, and when I was mowing the lawn, I thought of an example that hits closer to home for me, and maybe is a good comparison. Craftsman wrenches vs. Snap-on wrenches.

Both are forged steel with chrome finish. Both have lifetime guarantees, but a Craftsman is significantly less than the Snap-on. Why is this?

They both will tighten, or loosen nuts / bolts. This is not subjective, so why is Snap-on or Matco the "professionals" choice over the weekend warrior Craftsman?

Your "mowing the lawn" mention reminded me of something that somewhat pairs with the discussions when we're talking about production costs versus "high-end" premium. Not trying to shoot myself in the foot here, but it got me to thinking...

Last year my "high end" (considered to be so by most, I suppose) Toro lawnmower took it's final crap. I say that because it had been literally on its last legs since the day I purchased it. I chose Toro because of its reputation. After having owned a Toro - I'll tell you I would have done much better with an MTD....

So - when I went to replace it, I thought about brand (reputation). What is better than a John Deere, right!?! So - I spend the extra $$$ and went for the John Deere! Come to find out - the John Deere lawnmower I bought was likely manufactured for John Deere at MTD... Imagine that!!!

Now - quite frankly - I was a bit put off by that. Why did I not just buy an MTD (which was, after all, considerably cheaper)? So I did some side by side comparisons. Here's what I found...

They might have both been made at the same plant, but it was clear that they were both not made with the same parts. Are John Deere parts more expensive? Not sure - but they do seem to have more of a "heft" to them. Does the part justify the added expense of a John Deere lawnmower? Well - I can't really say for sure other than to say I'm happy I've traded my Toro for a John Deere... Is the John Deere better than a regular MTD? Well - I think so. Is is so much better that I should have paid extra money? Well... Ummm...

I get where you're coming from when you're comparing Lexus to Toyota, Acura to Honda, Infiniti to Nissan. Except that I own an Infiniti... In my view, while there are some similarities there's otherwise very little comparison between the G35 and the Maxima. If anything - when I take the car in for service I'm treated COMPLETELY differently. I'm used to the Chevy/Ford/Nisssan service department mentalities - and there ain't no comparison to the Inifiniti Service Department mentality. So - if there is no difference in the cost of the part being put into my car - there sure is a difference on the back end with the higher level of service I'm given. I do expect the same "level" of service experience from John Deere. Knock on wood - everything's working just as it should - I'll have to get back to you on the service part once I have an experience with their service (I'm hoping that will be a long, long, LONG time from now).

Lew Rothman does not like "high-end" cigars. He makes that VERY clear. In his view, they cost about the same to produce as a low end cigar so it makes no sense someone would spend the $$$ on a high-end cigar when they can smoke others more cheaply.

In a very simplistic view - that's true. If you have a roller making cigars, it takes pretty much the same effort and materials to roll a Opus as it does a Big Butt. But - it goes without saying that cigars like Opus are not rolled by just anyone at the Fuente factory and they're not using the same exact tobacco as their lower end cigars. "Pennies" in difference between one or the other? Perhaps. But also consider this... Fuente places a lot of pride in their Opus line. They wrap a better band around it (primarily, but the way, to thwart counterfeiters - imagine that!). They box Opus in a fancier box. The add "bells and whistles" to everything around an Opus. Still likely pennies on the dollar difference, but the differences now go from just a few pennies to upwards of a dollar or more. But wait - there's more!!!!

Next consider this... If Fuente was producing lower quality Opus (e.g. draw was not uniform, wrappers were not consistent, taste was not always similar, etc), would that Opus justify the price people were paying for it? I would suggest to you that their Quality Control costs associated with the Opus are subtantially more than the Curly Heads. Which means they're going to reject more.

Long story short. The Fuente factory manufacture a LOT of Opus X. But - they do not manufacture them in anywhere near the quantities of their lesser lines. Makes sense - I mean logically there are less available more highly skilled rollers, they're using the best tobacco Fuente (in much smaller quantities) they can get and putting them through a more stringent quality control process (rejecting much more finished product than standard runs).

Are they worth the extra money Fuente charges? I mean - I know an awful lot of folks that "hate" Fuente primarily because they think Fuente is doing some kind of marketing tricks with the Opus. Well - that's truly is the subjective part of all of this. Manufacturing costs aside, doesn't that really depend on where the buyer sits? We all routinely see places selling Opus WELL above even Fuente's suggested retail price! PEOPLE ARE BUYING THEM FOR INCREDIBLE PRICES (often above even Fuente's set retail pricing).

So why is that not true with a Big Butts? Why is Big Butt not selling for ungodly prices on eBay? If it's an issue of supply and demand pricing, why is Lew Rothman (and his counterparts) able to snatch up truckloads of Big Butts at dirt cheap pricing to sell in their "mega" cigar stores, but not Opus X? BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS BIG BUTTS EXCEPT THOSE LOOKING FOR A $2 CIGAR!

But back to reality. Is the manufacturers retail price of an Opus really that much more expensive than the rest of their lines? I would argue - dollar for dollar - value for value - cost of manufacture vs. cost of manufacture - they're really not that out of line. Cohiba vs. Quintero? Again - if you look at the "realistic" costs associated with factory to shelf (factoring out the "Lew" thoery), I don't believe you'll find the actual markup is as far apart as it may seem.

[CoventryCat86]

They might have both been made at the same plant, but it was clear that they were both not made with the same parts. Are John Deere parts more expensive? Not sure - but they do seem to have more of a "heft" to them. Does the part justify the added expense of a John Deere lawnmower? Well - I can't really say for sure other than to say I'm happy I've traded my Toro for a John Deere... Is the John Deere better than a regular MTD? Well - I think so. Is is so much better that I should have paid extra money? Well... Ummm...

On a similar note, there are Anderson windows and there are Anderson Windows sold by Home Depot for a lot cheaper. The dumbass consumer THINKS he's getting a "deal" buying name brand Anderson windows for a hell of a deal from Home Depot but if he were to buy that same Anderson window from a real hardware store and put it side by side with the Home Cheapo piece of crap that was 20% cheaper, he'd see a world of difference and realize how Home Cheapo just bent him over. Of course your average "consumer" is way too stupid to know better. How does that famous P.T. Barnum saying go...."There's a WHAT born every minute!"

[CoventryCat86]

I hate to say it Craig but George is right.

[CoventryCat86]

Oh, and when I was mowing the lawn, I thought of an example that hits closer to home for me, and maybe is a good comparison. Craftsman wrenches vs. Snap-on wrenches.

Both are forged steel with chrome finish. Both have lifetime guarantees, but a Craftsman is significantly less than the Snap-on. Why is this?

They both will tighten, or loosen nuts / bolts. This is not subjective, so why is Snap-on or Matco the "professionals" choice over the weekend warrior Craftsman?

If you're a professional mechanic like my brother is, there is a WORLD of difference between Crafstman garbage and Snap-On tools. I don't have enough time or space here to give you the many examples I know about but trust me, there IS a huge difference but I will give you a couple:

For instance, a Craftsman wrench will strip off the corners of a stove bolt that is frozen where as a Snap-On socket or combination wrench almost never will. As a matter of fact, I've personally been in situations where a friend rounded the corners of a bold with his cheap tools (usually Cratfsman) and when I put my Snap-On wrench on the bolt, it removed it with relative ease. Another example, Craftsman Philips screwdrivers are notorious for ruining the heads of troublesome screws and if you then use a Snap-On Philips head screw driver you can remove the screw that you thought was ruined.

Sure, Craftsman garbage is "lifetime guarantee" but what the hell good is that if the damn things keep breaking on you whereas Snap-On tools won't in the same situations? When you're trying to disassemble an engine on a Saturday night, it's not like the local Sears stores are open 24/7 to replace your broken tools and you can't finish the project whereas if you were working with Snap-On tools in the same situation, odds are very good to excellent they never would have broken in the first place. I can't tell you how many times I had to make good on the Craftsman guarantee only to have them keep breaking. It's a rare occasion I have to make good on a broken Snap-On tool. I've slowly weeded out all the Craftsman garbage from my tool boxes and I'm a much happier person for it.

My brother is pretty much a "professional" and I'm more the "weekend warrior" guy with tools and I avoid Craftsman, Chinese and Taiwan tools whenever possible, it's just not worth it no matter how "inexpensive" they are compared to real tools. Again, there is a HUGE difference and the additional cost is well worth it. eBay is an excellent source for buying Snap-On tools for less than full retail AND you can sell your Craftsman stuff there too in order to get rid of it. Who cares if you only get ten to twenty cents on the dollar, at least you've flushed the turds out of your tool box.

Where did Craig go, I thought he was going to finish his thought "over the weekend" (last weekend that was.......)

[badwhale]

Bill, STFU.

Will

[ggiese]

Bill, STFU.

Will

That's one way to attempt to end an argument!

[CoventryCat86]

That's one way to attempt to end an argument!

He asked a question and I gave him the answer. He's wrong and knows I'm right. I guess he just don't take to well to being disagreed with.

I'm still wondering what happened to craig.

[ashauler]

Where did Craig go, I thought he was going to finish his thought "over the weekend" (last weekend that was.......)

You obviously missed the "beaten to death" disclaimer in Craig's post. This thread for sure qualifies.

[craig]

Running around with work - haven't forgotten, will eventually reply ... and yes, George is right, but he also took took my statements out of context. However, I may not have given sufficient context .

As for Snap-on vs. Sears, I'll cover that too.

... gotta go, back in a few weeks.

[CoventryCat86]

You obviously missed the "beaten to death" disclaimer in Craig's post. This thread for sure qualifies.

No, I didn't miss it, there were hardly any posts after his last one so I don't believe that is "beaten to death."

[cinda]

you obviously missed the "beaten to death" disclaimer in craig's post. This thread for sure qualifies.

rotflmao!

[cinda]

I miss this thread entirely and I just spent some time reading though this and found some very interesting banter. I think KB's post had a lot of truth to it and put things into perspective. However I went down stairs and I ask my husband snap on or craftsmen which is better? He said what are you doing..... it makes all the difference in the world. He said for working on engines it's snap on. Last longer, breaks less and they have very good costumer service. You do pay for that service. He said you could compare them to Avon they come to the buyer and you have that personal connection with the distributor "Old school" However, for what I do working with wood and repairing things I'll go with craftsman tools. It's what my dad used it's what I grew up with it's tradition "Oh and never buy tools from home cheap O (Not kidding that what he said) He also said but I do look for both kinds of hand tools at yard sales. If its cheap enough I buy it, it happens to break, then I get a new one and at my next sale I'll sell it for 1/2 what a new one cost at the store. Anyhow I thought it was pretty funny it's like he had read this thread.

[badwhale]

I've slowly weeded out all the Craftsman garbage from my tool boxes and I'm a much happier person for it.

eBay is an excellent source for buying Snap-On tools for less than full retail AND you can sell your Craftsman stuff there too in order to get rid of it. Who cares if you only get ten to twenty cents on the dollar, at least you've flushed the turds out of your tool box.

Again, "slowly" means to me, once convinced you didn't just rush out and replace all your tools with Snap-On. IF snap-on tools were even twice as expensive as Craftsman, I too would replace them.

An example? I have a black roll cab with side cabinet, intermediate cabinet & tool chest. From Craftsman, it was around 1200 dollars. I don't have a Snap-On truck in front of me, nor their mysterious price catalog, but a friend who does bodywork has a Snap-On roll cab of similar volume that was around 10k.

Ya know, just saying the same thing again doesn't reinforce your argument, you are just repeating yourself.

...yeah, I need to "use my tools more"...

ETA: It's an intermediate drawer, not "cabinet"

[badwhale]

How do you know Craftsman sockets suck, and break all the time if you've replaced them?

I'll give you the screwdriver example.