I don't believe it

[Kenyth]

I think that the republican party is also moving in that direction. To be honest, it is getting harder and harder to see unity in our politicians no matter what party they belong to.

The problem is that "moderates" don't really serve the best interest's of the entities with money. The ability to please the power holders, and make the public buy it, is strictly the art of the politician. There are many agendas out there, and a lot of money available to push those agendas. A lot of money changes hands for favors done. It's to be expected.

Show me a modern president who came out of the oval office poorer than he went in, regardless of the economic situation. I'm guessing it will be tough.

[SmokinDVM]

OK. Bad example. I'll give you that. My point, not very well made, was that Pillar has his critics. He has openly criticized Bush and his policies since the beginning of the administration. It is fairly well known that he resents the fact that Bush and the rest of the intelligence community in this country, and indeed around the world, didn't agree with his assessment. My biggest problem with Pillar is that he believes the way to resolve disagreements with terrorists is to negotiate,. While I would love to believe that, I just can't. I don't believe that negotiations would have any lasting effect. I truly believe that the people we are fighting have no other agenda than to disrupt our society and kill as many of us as they can. They have nothing other than their religious beliefs to fight for and martyrdom, for them, is an honor, not a tragedy. The attempt in NY to blow up the Holland and Lincoln tunnels, and the plot that was unfolding to blow up 9 or 10 aircraft over the Atlantic supports that. And, of course, the attack on the WTC was completely unprovoked.

I am not a war monger. I would love to see this situation go away tomorrow and have our troops come home. Who wouldn't? But a quick withdrawl, in my opinion, would show our enemies that we can be beaten into submission, and would show our allies that we don't have the conviction to stay until the job is done. That, in my opinion, would be disasterous for the future security of our country. I believe the hate these people have for us is going to be around for a long, long time and we will have to continue to fight it far into the future.

One big reason that I don't feel comfortable with democratic leadership is their lack of consistency and conviction. The democratic party, in my opinion, create policy by bending to the poll of the day. They change their position quite frequently, depending on what is popular. Although this may seem like a good idea on the surface, the truth is that our government is a commonwealth, not a democracy. as I am sure you know. In a commonwealth, the people's responsibility is to vote for representatives to make the decisions and set policy that's best for the country, not to listen to the poll of the day and react. As you know, polls change weekly and I don't believe that changing our direction on a regular basis is the way that the country should be run.

Let me ask these questions, which might help me understand more where the democrats are coming from. What would the democrat's ideal resolution in Iraq be? What do they think the results would be if we pulled out of Iraq in the next 6 months or so? What is their plan for dealing with the threat from Iran and Korea? Going forward, what would they do to keep us safe from future attacks? Would their policy be proactive or reactive? Perhaps if I could get answers to those questions I could feel more comfortable with a democratic leadership, but honestly, just hearing that it's time for a change without knowing what that change would be leaves me cold.

Everybody has their critics. And actually many did agree with his assessments, they were just not allowed to voice their opinion.
A standard misconception about the Iraq war is that it really has anything to do with fighting terrorism. Our continued presence in the Middle East, as an occupying force, only serves to create more terrorists. The more time we spend wasting the lives of our Men, and our money, the fewer resources we have to work against the real terrorists.

The Democrats are, at least, discussing plans on how to best get out of Iraq. The idiots in power now have no plan, staying the course is not a plan. They claim things aren't as bad as the news reports, but it is really much worse. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...223363,00.html
I would much rather have discussions about how to fix the problem, than to have them pretend a problem doesn't exist.

There have been several plans presented by Democrats as to how to best address your exact questions. I haven't had any problem finding them. I think if you have, you really don't want to. I think it's ridiculous to continue to support an obviously flawed and failed plan, simply because you haven't listened to the other plans.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/pa12...51117iraq.html

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/n...2006_0620.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073100743.html

This is the reason you all think the Democrats don't have a plan.

[Shelby07]

Everybody has their critics. And actually many did agree with his assessments, they were just not allowed to voice their opinion.
A standard misconception about the Iraq war is that it really has anything to do with fighting terrorism. Our continued presence in the Middle East, as an occupying force, only serves to create more terrorists. The more time we spend wasting the lives of our Men, and our money, the fewer resources we have to work against the real terrorists.

Are you saying that we should pull out of the middle east totally? If so, how do you propose that we work against the "real" terrorists? Our methods are revealed by the NY Times and the ACLU and the democrats want to take away the Patriot Act (except, of course, when it comes time to vote. Then it's not politically convenient for them to stand by their convictions.)

The Democrats are, at least, discussing plans on how to best get out of Iraq. The idiots in power now have no plan, staying the course is not a plan. They claim things aren't as bad as the news reports, but it is really much worse. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...223363,00.html
I would much rather have discussions about how to fix the problem, than to have them pretend a problem doesn't exist.

There have been several plans presented by Democrats as to how to best address your exact questions. I haven't had any problem finding them. I think if you have, you really don't want to. I think it's ridiculous to continue to support an obviously flawed and failed plan, simply because you haven't listened to the other plans.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/pa12...51117iraq.html

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/n...2006_0620.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073100743.html

This is the reason you all think the Democrats don't have a plan.

You have told me in your last couple of postings that I am not aware of the democratic "plan(s)" for exiting Iraq. You have said that all I have to do is look for them and I will see them, and have implied that once I see them it will be obvious to me how wonderful they are. In a sense, you have accused me of being a mindless zombie who listens to the FOX news network 24 hours a day and doesn't have the ability or the desire to think for myself. Did it occur to you that perhaps I had seen these "plans" and I don't think they are 1) better than what we are doing now or 2) viable? I am familiar with John Murtha's "plan" and also Kerry's "plan." You forgot to mention Al Gore, Joseph Biden, Hillary Clinton and Bob Graham. I have seen their proposals. I don't think they are any better than the Republican plan, and, in fact, I believe them to be less productive. It is all rethoric and political posturing.

I have heard basically 3 plans from various democrats, and rather than point to their articles, I will tell you in my own words what I heard them say. One involves withdrawing from Iraq immediately, Another involves setting a date for withdrawal or troop redeployment concentrate on training the Iraqi's to defend themselves (basically Bush's plan with a deadline) and the third is to redeploy troops into other areas where terrorists are. Well, in my mind, immediate withdrawal of all of our troops from the middle east will simply empower the terrorists who have vowed on their God to kill us. Setting a time line for a withdrawal will cause the terrorists to lay low until we leave, then there will be a blood bath since the Iraqi military is not yet ready to defend themselves against terrorists. Of course, Joe Biden would like to leave a single brigade in Iraq to take care of the "hot spots" that arise here and there after we leave. Again, the enemy (and rest assured, they are our "enemy") would just lay low until we leave then make short work of the Iraqi forces as well as our "hung out" brigade. In the third plan, which seems to be the one repeated by most democrats, we should not bring our troops home, but instead redeploy them to wherever the terrorists are. Well, quite frankly, that would be just about every other country in the middle east except Israel. Do we invade southern Lebanon to wipe out the Hezbollas or invade Northern Pakistan where there are Al Queda strongholds? Do we send troops to Iran, jordon and Syria? And what about Korea. What about terrorist cells in Europe? Do we redeploy our troops there too? In my mind, the democratic "plans" are not viable.

I have asked why I should vote democratic. One reason I don't think I can is because they are not unified. The other reason is because I believe they are simply politicizing the situation. We are an impatient people. We watch too many movies and think the world can be saved in 90 minutes, and if it isn't there must be a flaw in the plan. Our enemies are extremely patient and will wait years before they launch devistating and horriffic attacks on us and our way of life. Three years? Five Years? A hundred years? They are patient and relentless, and anyone who can't see that had better get their head out of the sand. This is going to be a long war, and we can't afford to let our enemy outwait us. Terrorism isn't going to go away because we grow impatient and decide to simply drop it. Say what you will about Bush, and say what you will about me for what I am about to say, but we have not been attacked since 2001, and I believe it is because of the job the current administration is doing. Could they do better? Sure. Are they failing? No.

I used to work in computer and network security and the problem with it was as long as we were doing a great job everybody thought we were a waste of money. Does anyone remember the huge AT&T nationwide phone outage several years ago? As long as we were doing our job no one saw any problems, so they assumed they weren't there. They didn't know, nor did they care, how difficult it was to keep the networks from being attacked and how many attacks were kept out. It's one of those things where the best result is seeing nothing. But because they saw nothing, they decided to cut funding. Within 3 months the networks were hacked and the consequences were devistating. The war on terror is like that. We don't see any threats so we forget that they are there. Well, they are there, and they will continue to be there for a very long time. The democratic plans are not solutions, they are a necessary part of a political chess game being played against the current administration (it's called politics.) It's designed to exasperate the public and gain strength for the next election, not by improving their own stature but by lowering public opinion of their political opponent. And there is firm evidence that they lack conviction in their "plans" in that every time one comes up for a vote they can't even get a party line concensus. I watched John Murtha attack Bush for 3 months and become the point man for the democratic attack on Bush's handling of Iraq. He was so forceful, and all the democrats were behind him. When the Republicans finally forced a vote on this "plan" he had been ranting about, his own party gave him 6 votes. Of course they faulted the Republicans because the plan "wasn't ready." Huh? And when Kerry introduced his plan for redeployment, the democrats couldn't get a full party vote on that either. They couldn't even come to an agreement among themselves. This doesn't give me any warm fuzzy feelings that they have a very good plan.

I have spent time composing my posts so that my position can be made clear to you and you would have an opportunity to respond, not because I feel that my opinions are inferior to yours, but because I was truly interested in what you had to say. Instead you have given me the opportunity to read other people's words from left leaning publications and web sites, while at the same time accusing me of parroting FOX news. You can point me to links from the NY Times and Time magazine all day long, and I, in turn, can point you to the Wall Street Journal. That is not discussion. That is akin to parroting MSNBC vs FOX news. So if the answers to the questions in my previous posts are found in the links you gave me, then I have already heard them, considered them and respectfully disagree with them.

Something else I was taught in my years in Corporate America was how to negotiate with foreign cultures. One of the first things I learned was that I couldn't expect other cultures to think the same way I do. In order to put myself in their shoes I had to understand that I had never even seen their shoes, let alone been in them. They had not been "sensitized" to political correctness and they don't think or feel the same as we do. The American people are making a fatal mistake if they think terrorists will "talk" to us. Can you picture us negotiating with Bin Laden? Can you ever imagine a peaceful outcome to those "negotiations?" Could you ever see him and Hillary shaking hands in the rose garden? (Well, maybe you could.) We are dealing with a different culture that does not hold the same values as us. They don't think the same as us and they don't care about us. We treasure life. They use it as a weapon. This is a culture that has not changed since before Christianity and they have been at war for thousands of years. Do you think you can ever understand them? Do you think they will ever understand us? Perhaps the American people, in their high and mighty place in the world community, will give us all a chance to see this come November. I hope it doesn't happen, but it seems we have indeed forgotten and have moved on to other things.

[WhiteWidow]

One involves withdrawing from Iraq immediately,

Remember Vietnam? Yeah, still communist. The NVA leaders even attributed their victory to the American peace movement.

You bring up another good point about re-deployment with the question of where do we send them next? That is why I wish the rest of the world would finally decide they are fed up with this crap and do something about it. Its not our job alone to go to every country and fight.

[SmokinDVM]

You have told me in your last couple of postings that I am not aware of the democratic "plan(s)" for exiting Iraq. You have said that all I have to do is look for them and I will see them, and have implied that once I see them it will be obvious to me how wonderful they are. In a sense, you have accused me of being a mindless zombie who listens to the FOX news network 24 hours a day and doesn't have the ability or the desire to think for myself. Did it occur to you that perhaps I had seen these "plans" and I don't think they are 1) better than what we are doing now or 2) viable? I am familiar with John Murtha's "plan" and also Kerry's "plan." You forgot to mention Al Gore, Joseph Biden, Hillary Clinton and Bob Graham. I have seen their proposals. I don't think they are any better than the Republican plan, and, in fact, I believe them to be less productive. It is all rethoric and political posturing.

All of the “news” stations aside, do you really believe that the “stay the course” plan, leaving our troops in Iraq to act as targets for the insurgents (make no mistake, most of the “insurgents” aren’t terrorists as the dumbya admin. would like you to believe. They are Iraqi’s that want us out, just like the other 99% of the Iraqi population) is a good plan? Do you really think we’re winning the “hearts and minds”, or are we just creating more potential terrorists with every Iraqi death? How long do you think we can maintain a viable military presence in Iraq? How long before we have to bring back the Draft? Do you believe the neopuke plan is going to suddenly start to work, or are you willing to sacrifice unknown generations of our children to their cause? Do you think that our presence in Iraq will stop terrorist activity from continuing elsewhere (it has already been proven false with the current events in England)? Do you like the neopuke plan to pull 20 or 30 thousand troops out of Iraq in October, so they can gain a boost for the elections, and then send them back again? Is that political posturing? Would it be necessary if they really had a viable plan for ending our occupation in Iraq?
I don’t consider you a mindless zombie, however, I do consider anyone who supports the “no plan” plan to be insane. Insane in that they do something over and over again, getting the same disastrous result every time, but expecting a different one each time.

I have heard basically 3 plans from various democrats, and rather than point to their articles, I will tell you in my own words what I heard them say. One involves withdrawing from Iraq immediately, Another involves setting a date for withdrawal or troop redeployment concentrate on training the Iraqi's to defend themselves (basically Bush's plan with a deadline) and the third is to redeploy troops into other areas where terrorists are. Well, in my mind, immediate withdrawal of all of our troops from the middle east will simply empower the terrorists who have vowed on their God to kill us. Setting a time line for a withdrawal will cause the terrorists to lay low until we leave, then there will be a blood bath since the Iraqi military is not yet ready to defend themselves against terrorists. Of course, Joe Biden would like to leave a single brigade in Iraq to take care of the "hot spots" that arise here and there after we leave. Again, the enemy (and rest assured, they are our "enemy") would just lay low until we leave then make short work of the Iraqi forces as well as our "hung out" brigade. In the third plan, which seems to be the one repeated by most democrats, we should not bring our troops home, but instead redeploy them to wherever the terrorists are. Well, quite frankly, that would be just about every other country in the middle east except Israel. Do we invade southern Lebanon to wipe out the Hezbollas or invade Northern Pakistan where there are Al Queda strongholds? Do we send troops to Iran, jordon and Syria? And what about Korea. What about terrorist cells in Europe? Do we redeploy our troops there too? In my mind, the democratic "plans" are not viable.

Your main argument against all of the aforementioned plans is based on the incorrect assumption, which just happens to be the neopukes talking point and reason given for remaining in Iraq, that the insurgents in Iraq are actually terrorists. They are not. Ninety five percent of them are Iraqis that just want us to leave.
As to your question about where the Al Qaeda strongholds are, that’s exactly the problem with the “war” in Iraq. There are no “strongholds”, but rather a very loose connection of groups affiliated with them, spread throughout the World. So, why would continued action in Iraq deter them in any way? It wouldn’t. And, as has been proven in England and Spain, our resources would be much better utilized in the creation and implementation of intelligence operations to find, track, and neutralize the individual groups of terrorists, and to actually work towards the security of our own borders.

[SmokinDVM]

I have asked why I should vote democratic. One reason I don't think I can is because they are not unified. The other reason is because I believe they are simply politicizing the situation. We are an impatient people. We watch too many movies and think the world can be saved in 90 minutes, and if it isn't there must be a flaw in the plan. Our enemies are extremely patient and will wait years before they launch devistating and horriffic attacks on us and our way of life. Three years? Five Years? A hundred years? They are patient and relentless, and anyone who can't see that had better get their head out of the sand. This is going to be a long war, and we can't afford to let our enemy outwait us. Terrorism isn't going to go away because we grow impatient and decide to simply drop it. Say what you will about Bush, and say what you will about me for what I am about to say, but we have not been attacked since 2001, and I believe it is because of the job the current administration is doing. Could they do better? Sure. Are they failing? No.

You continue to confuse the “war” in Iraq with the problem of terrorists. In effect you’re parroting the inane neopuke line of “we’re fighting them over there, so we don’t have to fight them over here”. The bombings in Spain, England, and the current English arrests, have proven that idiotic mantra completely and utterly false.
Until people realize that fighting terrorists has NOTHING to do with fighting a country, we will continue to be at risk for more attacks.

I used to work in computer and network security and the problem with it was as long as we were doing a great job everybody thought we were a waste of money. Does anyone remember the huge AT&T nationwide phone outage several years ago? As long as we were doing our job no one saw any problems, so they assumed they weren't there. They didn't know, nor did they care, how difficult it was to keep the networks from being attacked and how many attacks were kept out. It's one of those things where the best result is seeing nothing. But because they saw nothing, they decided to cut funding. Within 3 months the networks were hacked and the consequences were devistating. The war on terror is like that. We don't see any threats so we forget that they are there. Well, they are there, and they will continue to be there for a very long time. The democratic plans are not solutions, they are a necessary part of a political chess game being played against the current administration (it's called politics.) It's designed to exasperate the public and gain strength for the next election, not by improving their own stature but by lowering public opinion of their political opponent. And there is firm evidence that they lack conviction in their "plans" in that every time one comes up for a vote they can't even get a party line concensus. I watched John Murtha attack Bush for 3 months and become the point man for the democratic attack on Bush's handling of Iraq. He was so forceful, and all the democrats were behind him. When the Republicans finally forced a vote on this "plan" he had been ranting about, his own party gave him 6 votes. Of course they faulted the Republicans because the plan "wasn't ready." Huh? And when Kerry introduced his plan for redeployment, the democrats couldn't get a full party vote on that either. They couldn't even come to an agreement among themselves. This doesn't give me any warm fuzzy feelings that they have a very good plan.

Do you really think that dumbya and his cronies would be silent about ANY terrorist plots actually prevented? Hell, they had NOTHING to do with the investigation and arrests in England last week, yet he continues to say “we” were responsible. And let’s not forget about the group in Miami, what a fucking joke!
So, what you’re saying here is that no alternative plan/s should be considered, because all of the details haven’t been discussed, and worked out. Have any details been worked out in the present “plan”? Fuck no! Hell, they don’t even have a plan, no less any details to one. BTW, forcing votes, without discussion, is the neopukes way of doing business. No planning or thought is put into anything they do. They rely solely on false patriotism and fear mongering. “If you don’t support the war, you don’t support the troops.” “If you vote for the Democrats, we’ll get hit again.”
But it’s OK if the neopukes do nothing substantive to protect our borders, as long as they keep giving you those warm and fuzzy feelings.

I have spent time composing my posts so that my position can be made clear to you and you would have an opportunity to respond, not because I feel that my opinions are inferior to yours, but because I was truly interested in what you had to say. Instead you have given me the opportunity to read other people's words from left leaning publications and web sites, while at the same time accusing me of parroting FOX news. You can point me to links from the NY Times and Time magazine all day long, and I, in turn, can point you to the Wall Street Journal. That is not discussion. That is akin to parroting MSNBC vs FOX news. So if the answers to the questions in my previous posts are found in the links you gave me, then I have already heard them, considered them and respectfully disagree with them.

In one thread, I’m accused of posting without providing supporting links, and in another, I’m accused of only posting links and not providing my own plan, or some such shit. It’s like arguing with a teenage girl. Make up your damn mind!
How about you show me where the neopukes have presented ANY real plan to combat terrorism? Go ahead and provide links, as I want to be sure this plan is really theirs, and not what you perceive as a plan, because so far, you’ve not provided any real evidence that your conclusions are valid.

Something else I was taught in my years in Corporate America was how to negotiate with foreign cultures. One of the first things I learned was that I couldn't expect other cultures to think the same way I do. In order to put myself in their shoes I had to understand that I had never even seen their shoes, let alone been in them. They had not been "sensitized" to political correctness and they don't think or feel the same as we do. The American people are making a fatal mistake if they think terrorists will "talk" to us. Can you picture us negotiating with Bin Laden? Can you ever imagine a peaceful outcome to those "negotiations?" Could you ever see him and Hillary shaking hands in the rose garden? (Well, maybe you could.) We are dealing with a different culture that does not hold the same values as us. They don't think the same as us and they don't care about us. We treasure life. They use it as a weapon. This is a culture that has not changed since before Christianity and they have been at war for thousands of years. Do you think you can ever understand them? Do you think they will ever understand us? Perhaps the American people, in their high and mighty place in the world community, will give us all a chance to see this come November. I hope it doesn't happen, but it seems we have indeed forgotten and have moved on to other things.

And do you think dumbya and his cronies have any understanding of the Middle East? He refused to even listen to advisors who were EXPERTS on the Middle East. His “crusade”(his word) in the Middle East, will end as all the others have.
I don’t believe I ever said anything about negotiating with terrorists. I have no idea where you came up with that bullshit, but it’s nothing more than a straw man.
I actually believe we need to hunt them down and arrest or kill the fuckers. I don’t think we will be successful though, as long as we waste valuable Men and resources on a personal project like Iraq.

I certainly hope the American people are beginning to wake up and smell the bullshit. Unfortunately, it will take many, many years to repair the damage done by this group of assholes in charge right now.

[bigpoppapuff]

attn: jaewing or bakabirch....yesterday our leader said we're at war with "islamic fascists"...can one of you please explain to me...what the fuck is an "islamic fascist"??..

[WhiteWidow]

Islamo-fascists are the scum that decended from al-Husseini and his Handjar Brigade during WWII. Hezbollah are big fans.

[Shelby07]

Finally we have some discussion going.

First, I believe the only link I ever asked you for was a link that was able to verify through records, charges or official proceedings that Bush lied about his belief that WMD’s were in Iraq before we went in. I don’t think I ever asked for nor indicated that I needed links to the Democratic plans or any opinions at all. I did say that their plans were not viable, in my opinion, but never indicated that I hadn’t seen them.

You say that my flawed premise is that we are not fighting terrorists in Iraq. You say that 99% of the population wants us out. 99%? Why not just round it to 100%? I understand that you exaggerated the number for effect., which is just what the opponents of Bush are doing. I don’t know what the real number is, but, thinking it through, I believe if it were very high, the “insurgents” would be attacking and killing more of us instead of their own people. They keep killing themselves, yet the democrats and news pendants want us to believe that they are fighting in a concertred and united effort to get us out. How does what we are seeing and what they are saying make any sense?

So, let’s reason something else out for a minute. On one hand democratic spin tells us that there are no terrorist strongholds in Iraq, only insurgents fighting a civil war, and on the other they tell us that American presence in Iraq is only making things worse by increasing the number of terrorists operating out of Iraq due to Bush’s failed policies. Which is it? The fact is that we continue to root out terrorist leaders in Iraq, not the least being Al Zarquai himself. Opinions continue to dribble in that terrorists are flocking to Iraq to fight the Americans and that the Bush policy is making things worse, but that seems to be losing its punch. So now we are being told that they are fighting a civil war and that the vast majority of Iraqi’s don’t want us there. Well, my conclusion is that as long as we continue to find, capture and kill the high level members of terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda in Iraq, then they must still be there.

Do I believe that “stay the course” is working? Think it out. Evidence so far says that it is. The presence in Iraq is only one part of it, and as stated above, I believe we still need to be there in force. We haven't been successfully attacked since 9/11 despite attempts by our enemies, and there have been several cells rounded up in this and other countries due to intelligence from the CIA, FBI and Homeland Security. Are they talking to each other? Yes. Is it working? It sure seems to be. I don’t know, and I don't know if anybody knows, how many attacks were thwarted in this country because these cells were broken up, but common sense and logic dictates that it must have been a few.

I do not confuse the “war” in Iraq with the war on terrorism. Iraq has a fledgling government elected by the majority of the people of Iraq through legal elections which we helped along after Saddam’s downfall. We most certainly have an interest in having that new government succeed. We are not at war with Iraq. We are defending their government until they get to the point where they can defend themselves. Concurrently, we are rooting out the terrorist strongholds that still exist in Iraq intent on defeating the newly elected government for the purpose of keeping democracy out of the Middle East. I keep hearing that there is a “civil war” going on in Iraq, but I don’t see it. I don’t see factions breaking off and seceding from the government, nor do I see separate governments or borders forming. I see terrorists (or insurgents if you prefer) trying to overturn the will and the resolve of the people of Iraq with suicide bombings, car bombs, kidnappings and brutal murders. And as I said before, until their government is strong enough to continue weeding out terrorists (insurgents) we need to keep our presence there or risk the newly elected (by the Iraqi people, not the Bush administration) government being defeated by our enemies. How long can we maintain our presence? Given that the government would more than likely crumble if we left too soon, I would say as long as we have to.

Do I think we are winning friends in Iraq and around the world because of our presence in Iraq? Well, it seems to me that no matter what we do, there will be those in the world who are going to hate us anyway. It’s kind of like hating the rich because they are rich. The WTC was attacked long before we went into Iraq, and not by those who loved us. And frankly, I really don’t give a shit about the French. They are still pissed off over the fact that their special contracts with Iraq to obtain cheap oil has been destroyed. We are at war. I won’t minimize the fact that there are those who have attacked and killed us in the past and will persist in their efforts far into the future just so we can be popular in a world that depends on US soldiers and US lives for their protection.

Am I willing to “sacrifice” the next generation? That’s one of those very difficult questions asked on polls and in political speeches that turn you into a heartless ogre if you don’t answer it in a particular way. So let me rephrase it. Are you willing to sit back and let our country be attacked so that our military remains safe and sound? The military fight wars, and people die in wars. That's what war is about. Past generations have paid the ultimate sacrifice to preserve and protect our freedoms and way of life. As long as our country needs to be protected, our soldiers will risk paying the ultimate sacrifice. Is there another way? If so, enlighten me.

Will the draft be reimplemented? It may be, I don't know, but there are no indications coming from anywhere that will happen. Charlie Rangel and Ernest Hollings tried to use that scare tactic in 2004, remember? Bills to implement the draft were introduced and overwhelmingly defeated.

Would resources be better utilized for intelligence operations? You Betcha! And they are. But the democrats want to tie the hands of the current administration by limiting surveillance abilities and demanding public details of methodology being used by the intelligence communities. That is something that just doesn’t make sense to me, and every fiber of me says that it is a democratic effort to make the current administration look like the secret police. Do you think the Brits would have been able to uncover the plot to blow up 10 aircraft had they had their hands tied by the ACLU, or had the NY Times reporting their methodology? Even worse, had the terrorists succeeded in downing the planes, any evidence of how they accomplished it would be lost at the bottom of the ocean. Without surveillance ability, who knows if the Brits would have uncovered the plot and whether it would have been used again due to lack of sufficient clues to determine how it was accomplished in the first place.

Why did I think you felt we could negotiate with terrorists? It was an assumption I made since you were citing Paul Pillar in a previous post who is well known for his feelings on the subject. I assumed that since you used his opinion as supporting documentation, you probably agreed with the ideas that influenced his opinions. I am glad I was wrong on that one.

[Shelby07]

Do I think alternative plans should not be discussed? Of course not. That’s an insulting question designed to belittle me and make me look like an inflexible fool, and it does not lend itself to promoting intelligent discussion. And, in fact, it is a great lead in to what I am about to say. The “plans” that have been presented have been done in the context of a 20 minute diatribe of telling the “President” (i.e., listen to us, citizens of the US) that he is a liar, a criminal and a buffoon, and ending with “we have a better plan. Why aren’t you smart enough to listen to us?” Is this the way any sane person would start a negotiation? Remember your definition of insanity. You know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? They aren’t saying a damn thing about a plan, nor are they trying to talk about alternatives. If they were so damn worried about discussion and negotiation of their plan, they would change their approach. Their agenda is only to paint the current administration in a bad light, and they have no interest in presenting a “better plan.” They have to have something, so they keep getting together and coming up with inane statements on pieces of paper that, by their own admission, aren’t fully thought out yet. “But it’s gotta be better than Bush’s plan.” As I said, it is a necessary piece in a game of chess, nothing more. And the public keeps buying it.

Am I looking for warm fuzzies? No. There are no warm fuzzies available in a war. It was a figure of speech. No one wants war but when the other fellow hits you, you can either hit back, or stand there telling him that wasn’t nice while he proceeds to kill you.

Bush didn’t refuse to believe experts. You have decided he didn’t listen to “your” experts after the fact, but as I stated in a previous post, he had full support of the democrats and the rest of the world going in as evidenced by congressional votes and UN resolutions. To say now that he made the decision to go into Iraq all by himself is nothing more than revisionist history.

So what is the purpose of the democratic resistance to what is going on? In my estimation it is political posturing and spin for no other reason than to gain power. There are 2 ways to improve a position. One is to make yourself better; the other is to try to make your opponent worse. The democrats aren’t making themselves better. They don’t have unity, nor do they have any viable or well thought out ideas, so they have to try to win by belittling republicans. And, I’ll have to give it to them, they’re good at it.

As for republican and democratic “talking points”… You seem to imply that democratic talking points are valid and republican talking points are invalid. You accuse me of referencing republican talking points, and seem to expect that would make them automatically invalid. You have referenced many ideas that I consider to be democratic talking points, but I have never assumed that you were echoing them. Sometimes talking points actually make sense and sometimes they don’t. That goes equally for democrats or republicans.

These are my views. They are thought out, not echoed. I am still interested in discussion, but let’s try to keep it on a logical, thinking level.

Anybody else interested in joining in?

[SmokinDVM]

You say that my flawed premise is that we are not fighting terrorists in Iraq. You say that 99% of the population wants us out. 99%? Why not just round it to 100%? I understand that you exaggerated the number for effect., which is just what the opponents of Bush are doing. I don’t know what the real number is, but, thinking it through, I believe if it were very high, the “insurgents” would be attacking and killing more of us instead of their own people. They keep killing themselves, yet the democrats and news pendants want us to believe that they are fighting in a concertred and united effort to get us out. How does what we are seeing and what they are saying make any sense?

Yes, you’re probably right, it’s probably closer to 100%. I was using the same premise as “4 out of 5 Dentists say brushing helps prevent cavities”. There’s always someone that just has to be contrary.
Who said it was a concerted and united effort? It’s a loosely, if even that much, connected group of people who are fighting an urban guerilla type of war. Just because they don’t have the firepower to engage us in direct combat doesn’t mean they don’t want us out. I believe the count of dead U.S. Soldiers in Iraq, in the first 13 days of Aug. 2006, is at 23, with more than 110 wounded. I’d have to say they’re still trying to kill our boys.

So, let’s reason something else out for a minute. On one hand democratic spin tells us that there are no terrorist strongholds in Iraq, only insurgents fighting a civil war, and on the other they tell us that American presence in Iraq is only making things worse by increasing the number of terrorists operating out of Iraq due to Bush’s failed policies. Which is it? The fact is that we continue to root out terrorist leaders in Iraq, not the least being Al Zarquai himself. Opinions continue to dribble in that terrorists are flocking to Iraq to fight the Americans and that the Bush policy is making things worse, but that seems to be losing its punch. So now we are being told that they are fighting a civil war and that the vast majority of Iraqi’s don’t want us there. Well, my conclusion is that as long as we continue to find, capture and kill the high level members of terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda in Iraq, then they must still be there.

We’re not talking about terrorists operating out of Iraq, we’re talking about the terrorists being created/recruited in the entire Middle East. Al Zarqawi wasn’t even considered a part of Al Qaeda until the war in Iraq started. Al Qaeda considered him a threat to Bin Laden and other leaders of their group. It’s even been considered by the Intelligence Agencies of some Countries, not the US of course, that Al Zarqawi was given up by Al Qaeda. So the huge number of terrorist leaders we’ve killed or captured in Iraq equals exactly ½.
The real terrorists aren’t “flocking” into Iraq to fight the US, they’re plotting attacks on London and Madrid.

Do I believe that “stay the course” is working? Think it out. Evidence so far says that it is. The presence in Iraq is only one part of it, and as stated above, I believe we still need to be there in force. We haven't been successfully attacked since 9/11 despite attempts by our enemies, and there have been several cells rounded up in this and other countries due to intelligence from the CIA, FBI and Homeland Security. Are they talking to each other? Yes. Is it working? It sure seems to be. I don’t know, and I don't know if anybody knows, how many attacks were thwarted in this country because these cells were broken up, but common sense and logic dictates that it must have been a few.

If there were ANY REAL terrorist cells or plots broken up in the U.S. the neocons would be crowing about them endlessly. There isn’t any evidence that anything the neocons have done is working. Could you please provide evidence of these attempted attacks? I’ve only seen a couple reports that were quickly shown to be nothing more than continued neocon bullshit.
Common sense and logic dictate no such thing. I think it much more likely that we haven’t had a major attack in the U.S. because no ones made a serious attempt.

I do not confuse the “war” in Iraq with the war on terrorism. Iraq has a fledgling government elected by the majority of the people of Iraq through legal elections which we helped along after Saddam’s downfall. We most certainly have an interest in having that new government succeed. We are not at war with Iraq. We are defending their government until they get to the point where they can defend themselves. Concurrently, we are rooting out the terrorist strongholds that still exist in Iraq intent on defeating the newly elected government for the purpose of keeping democracy out of the Middle East. I keep hearing that there is a “civil war” going on in Iraq, but I don’t see it. I don’t see factions breaking off and seceding from the government, nor do I see separate governments or borders forming. I see terrorists (or insurgents if you prefer) trying to overturn the will and the resolve of the people of Iraq with suicide bombings, car bombs, kidnappings and brutal murders. And as I said before, until their government is strong enough to continue weeding out terrorists (insurgents) we need to keep our presence there or risk the newly elected (by the Iraqi people, not the Bush administration) government being defeated by our enemies. How long can we maintain our presence? Given that the government would more than likely crumble if we left too soon, I would say as long as we have to.

They’ve had 3 years to develop a security force to protect themselves. How many units of Iraqi’s are ready to assume control of security in any section of Iraq? Exactly NONE. Why is it that it takes 13 weeks to prepare a U.S. Army trainee for combat, but we can’t train a single unit of Iraqi’s for such in 3 years?
I do see a civil war breaking out in Iraq, maybe not along strictly political lines, but definitely along religious ones. Sunni-Shiite violence is a common and ever increasing occurrence in Iraq.
We’re not “weeding” out anybody by being in Iraq. Our continued presence only serves to fuel the violence.
The U.S. Government doesn’t give 2 shits about democracy in the Middle East. If they did care, they wouldn’t have sat on their hands concerning Lebanon. They were a functioning, however young, Democracy, even without our presence there.

Do I think we are winning friends in Iraq and around the world because of our presence in Iraq? Well, it seems to me that no matter what we do, there will be those in the world who are going to hate us anyway. It’s kind of like hating the rich because they are rich. The WTC was attacked long before we went into Iraq, and not by those who loved us. And frankly, I really don’t give a shit about the French. They are still pissed off over the fact that their special contracts with Iraq to obtain cheap oil has been destroyed. We are at war. I won’t minimize the fact that there are those who have attacked and killed us in the past and will persist in their efforts far into the future just so we can be popular in a world that depends on US soldiers and US lives for their protection.

It’s called DIPLOMACY. Most Countries practice it, as we did prior to our present chickenhawk administration, and it really works. And don’t start about stupid contracts with Iraq for oil. Darth Cheney himself had been dealing illegally with Iraq through French based holdings of the Carlyl Group, and Haliburton.
What you’re doing is minimizing the value of U.S. Soldiers lives, by linking terrorist activities with military action in a country that was NEVER a threat to the U.S. in any way. When you repeat stupid neocon drivel, like linking Iraq with the WTC attack, you’re insulting my intelligence, and insulting every single person who has lost their life in both the WTC, and the conflict in Iraq.
One last time, I hope. Our presence in Iraq does NOTHING to deter terrorist activity anywhere else in the World.

Am I willing to “sacrifice” the next generation? That’s one of those very difficult questions asked on polls and in political speeches that turn you into a heartless ogre if you don’t answer it in a particular way. So let me rephrase it. Are you willing to sit back and let our country be attacked so that our military remains safe and sound? The military fight wars, and people die in wars. That's what war is about. Past generations have paid the ultimate sacrifice to preserve and protect our freedoms and way of life. As long as our country needs to be protected, our soldiers will risk paying the ultimate sacrifice. Is there another way? If so, enlighten me.

Those two questions have nothing in common. Terrorist attacks on the U.S. have nothing to do with our Military. If a Country attacks us, our Military should be involved. Terrorists are not Countries, they are criminals, and should be treated as such. Our Intelligence Services and Law Enforcement, should be used to hunt and eliminate these criminals, not the Military.
Are you trying to compare what’s going on in Iraq with WWII or similar? Iraq has nothing to do with protecting our freedoms or our way of life. If you were really concerned with our freedoms and way of life, you might actual realize that this admins response to 9/11 has allowed the terrorists to win already. Our way of life is changing. Our freedoms are being rolled back. Our rights are being trampled on. The terrorists have accomplished at least part of their mission, and are laughing at us now.

[SmokinDVM]

Will the draft be reimplemented? It may be, I don't know, but there are no indications coming from anywhere that will happen. Charlie Rangel and Ernest Hollings tried to use that scare tactic in 2004, remember? Bills to implement the draft were introduced and overwhelmingly defeated.

Not my point at all. What I was discussing was, as the Military continues to fall drastically short of recruiting goals, and as that trend continues to worsen, will the draft be implemented to make up for the troop deficits, will we pull the troops out when it becomes obvious (more than it is already) that the objective (whatever the hell that is) can’t be accomplished with the present troop numbers, or will we leave them in until the last man is dead? If we continue to leave troops in Iraq for 3 and 4 tours, we’ll soon run into one of the above scenarios.

Would resources be better utilized for intelligence operations? You Betcha! And they are. But the democrats want to tie the hands of the current administration by limiting surveillance abilities and demanding public details of methodology being used by the intelligence communities. That is something that just doesn’t make sense to me, and every fiber of me says that it is a democratic effort to make the current administration look like the secret police. Do you think the Brits would have been able to uncover the plot to blow up 10 aircraft had they had their hands tied by the ACLU, or had the NY Times reporting their methodology? Even worse, had the terrorists succeeded in downing the planes, any evidence of how they accomplished it would be lost at the bottom of the ocean. Without surveillance ability, who knows if the Brits would have uncovered the plot and whether it would have been used again due to lack of sufficient clues to determine how it was accomplished in the first place.

Limiting surveillance abilities = preventing the neocons from spying on U.S. Citizens illegally. And, they’re demanding OVERSIGHT of activities within the United States, not an unreasonable request IME. The NY Times? The ACLU? Whether you want to admit it or not, you’re pulling that shit straight off of fox, and they’re pulling it straight out of their ass. Dumbya had publicly discussed tracking bank records long before the Times reported such. Interesting how no one had a shit-fit about that. And the ACLU, although they do get carried away sometimes, does a very necessary service for the citizens of this country.
BTW, the British were tipped off by a Pakistani who had noticed some suspicious activity from some of the accused terrorists. The British then used conventional, and what would be perfectly legal means, even in the U.S., to track the activities of the terrorists. Without that tip, the planes may have went down. And to top it all off, dumbya comes out with the term Islamo-fascist, just to piss off all of the Muslims he possibly can, just to see if he can keep them from helping the next time.
So let’s stop pretending that there was some “special surveillance technique” that the British were able to use, and we wouldn’t because of that damned Bill of Rights section of the U.S. Constitution.

Why did I think you felt we could negotiate with terrorists? It was an assumption I made since you were citing Paul Pillar in a previous post who is well known for his feelings on the subject. I assumed that since you used his opinion as supporting documentation, you probably agreed with the ideas that influenced his opinions. I am glad I was wrong on that one.

I have no love for terrorists, and am not of the belief that they can be negotiated with in any meaningful way, any more than any other criminal. I don’t, however, think that any of the recent hostilities in the Middle East, involve negotiating with terrorists to help garner some peaceful resolution of at least the current actions.

[SmokinDVM]

Do I think alternative plans should not be discussed? Of course not. That’s an insulting question designed to belittle me and make me look like an inflexible fool, and it does not lend itself to promoting intelligent discussion. And, in fact, it is a great lead in to what I am about to say. The “plans” that have been presented have been done in the context of a 20 minute diatribe of telling the “President” (i.e., listen to us, citizens of the US) that he is a liar, a criminal and a buffoon, and ending with “we have a better plan. Why aren’t you smart enough to listen to us?” Is this the way any sane person would start a negotiation? Remember your definition of insanity. You know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? They aren’t saying a damn thing about a plan, nor are they trying to talk about alternatives. If they were so damn worried about discussion and negotiation of their plan, they would change their approach. Their agenda is only to paint the current administration in a bad light, and they have no interest in presenting a “better plan.” They have to have something, so they keep getting together and coming up with inane statements on pieces of paper that, by their own admission, aren’t fully thought out yet. “But it’s gotta be better than Bush’s plan.” As I said, it is a necessary piece in a game of chess, nothing more. And the public keeps buying it.

You do realize that NOTHING gets brought up for discussion, no less a vote, without the neocons approval? The Democrats, at present, have absolutely zero ability to force a vote on anything. So, whose agenda is being served by bypassing discussion, and forcing a vote, on any bill? Hmmm, let me see, maybe the NEOCONS.
Feigning injury doesn’t promote intelligent discussion either. I was making a point that the neocons, and you per this entire discussion, aren’t offering up any alternate plans, or any plans at all. Do all of you think that everything is running along just peachy, like the asshole-in-chief does? Stay the course, is all that’s heard from all the neocons. Do they really think it’s the best course possible, or do they just like the catchy three word phrases, and are afraid to depart from them and actually think?

Am I looking for warm fuzzies? No. There are no warm fuzzies available in a war. It was a figure of speech. No one wants war but when the other fellow hits you, you can either hit back, or stand there telling him that wasn’t nice while he proceeds to kill you.

Sure, but if the guy sitting to your left at the bar, pushes you on purpose and makes you spill your beer, do you punch the guy sitting six stools to your right, who was just sitting there drinking and not really bothering anyone?

Bush didn’t refuse to believe experts. You have decided he didn’t listen to “your” experts after the fact, but as I stated in a previous post, he had full support of the democrats and the rest of the world going in as evidenced by congressional votes and UN resolutions. To say now that he made the decision to go into Iraq all by himself is nothing more than revisionist history.

No, it isn’t revisionist history. Dumbya and his cronies knowingly promoted specious evidence as to Iraqs military capability, possession of WMD’s, and involvement in any terrorist activities. And, the continued coverup, and stonewalling of investigations into the pre-war intelligence and dumbya’s handling of it, should completely outrage everyone in this Country.
BTW, the facts were purposefully ignored BEFORE the war. Did you know that immediately post 9/11 dumbya ordered that ALL intelligence gathered by the Central Intelligence Agency, Department of Defense, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the State Department, and his cabinet members was restricted to viewing by only 8 members of Congress? All of that information is still being protected by the neocons. What is dumbya afraid of? I have to assume he’s afraid of getting caught lying, and will do whatever is necessary to delay that discovery until after the 2006 elections, and longer if possible.

So what is the purpose of the democratic resistance to what is going on? In my estimation it is political posturing and spin for no other reason than to gain power. There are 2 ways to improve a position. One is to make yourself better; the other is to try to make your opponent worse. The democrats aren’t making themselves better. They don’t have unity, nor do they have any viable or well thought out ideas, so they have to try to win by belittling republicans. And, I’ll have to give it to them, they’re good at it.

How about we apply a little neocon, and others, “logic” to this situation? Well, the neocons continuously say that all of the rights the “patriot” act has taken away, the illegal phone taps, collection of bank records, and searches without a warrant, shouldn’t bother anyone if they don’t have anything to hide. So, why do the neocons continue to block access to pre-war intelligence, oversight of the phone tapping, and energy policy meeting participants etc., etc.? If they aren’t guilty of any wrongdoing, then they shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

As for republican and democratic “talking points”… You seem to imply that democratic talking points are valid and republican talking points are invalid. You accuse me of referencing republican talking points, and seem to expect that would make them automatically invalid. You have referenced many ideas that I consider to be democratic talking points, but I have never assumed that you were echoing them. Sometimes talking points actually make sense and sometimes they don’t. That goes equally for democrats or republicans.

I would have to agree, that as a general rule, neocon talking points ARE invalid, and Democratic talking points are valid. As we all should know, rules always have their exceptions. I just haven't seen too many lately.

These are my views. They are thought out, not echoed. I am still interested in discussion, but let’s try to keep it on a logical, thinking level.

I have presented all of my views in as simple and logical a format as possible. You can lead a horse to water…