Starting Construction

[ashauler]

From craigs post on Old-school humidors:
http://www.jcpendergast.com/Walkin.aspx

[DeeDubya]

From craigs post on Old-school humidors:
http://www.jcpendergast.com/Walkin.aspx

Thanks, It looks like they do some pretty nice projects. I haven't called them yet but my guess is that those plywood panels are Western Red Cedar and not Spanish cedar. I found some this weekend and bought 5 sheets of 3/8". This was from a wholesaler for $60/sheet. Cedar is a little hard to work with because of "cupping". It is so hygroscopic (a good thing) that it wants to curl one direction when damp and the other when dry. The plywood will nail down but the 12"w shelves need to stay straight.

I'm looking at doing the floor in cedar too. There is no cedar flooring because it's too soft but I think 1" T&G siding will do nicely when nailed to a 3/4" subfloor.

Hopefully I will have so much cedar in there when finished that a beetle won't have a chance.

[DeeDubya]

Hopefully I've found a better choice for a humidifier. This unit is less expensive, will not require the osmosis system and maintain up to 3000 cu ft. My humidor has approx 600 cu ft so this thing should just loaf. I've got a water softener so the normal calcium build-up should not be a problem.

"The Trion 707U Humidifier System incorporates all the features necessary to properly humidify a large area in a simple Do-It-Yourself kit. This system is designed to connect directly to a water source, will automatically refill, and a single unit can maintain up to 75-80% relative humidity in an area as large as 3000 cubic feet. The 707U is a hard wire system and will require access to electricity. To provide a measurement and reading of the exact humidity, a separate hygrometer gauge is needed."

[drew_goring]

Hopefully I've found a better choice for a humidifier. This unit is less expensive, will not require the osmosis system and maintain up to 3000 cu ft. My humidor has approx 600 cu ft so this thing should just loaf. I've got a water softener so the normal calcium build-up should not be a problem.

"The Trion 707U Humidifier System incorporates all the features necessary to properly humidify a large area in a simple Do-It-Yourself kit. This system is designed to connect directly to a water source, will automatically refill, and a single unit can maintain up to 75-80% relative humidity in an area as large as 3000 cubic feet. The 707U is a hard wire system and will require access to electricity. To provide a measurement and reading of the exact humidity, a separate hygrometer gauge is needed."

Doesn't sound like that one is an active humidifier. Might be a decent investment to get an active one so you know your sticks will be kept safe and you won't have to keep adjusting the humidifier.

[Humidor Minister]

I tried using RO water and had a mold problem. IMHO you really should use distilled water. I'm sure you have a lot of cigars at stake. It could save you from a really bad day some day.
Good luck thoug.Sounds like it'll be an awesome set up.

[DeeDubya]

Doesn't sound like that one is an active humidifier. Might be a decent investment to get an active one so you know your sticks will be kept safe and you won't have to keep adjusting the humidifier.

I'm not sure what an active humidifier is. Is it the kind with the centrifugal wheel that spins off tiny droplets. I understand that they can cause a white dust to settle out of the air. There are several technologies available. Maybe the wick type would be best if I could find one with enough capacity. The wicks are replaceable, so when they build up with calcium they are tossed.

There is also the heated element type, wet brick, and ultrasonic. Do they make one with a "flux capacitor"?

[craig]

I tried using RO water and had a mold problem. IMHO you really should use distilled water. I'm sure you have a lot of cigars at stake. It could save you from a really bad day some day.
Good luck thoug.Sounds like it'll be an awesome set up.

In a walk-in?

Sounds like your RO system was contaminated.

No space for 216 lbs of beads? Sounds like a fundamental design flaw...

Actually, beads can be used: http://www.fuji-silysia.co.jp/englis..._home_gel.html

However, it sounds like there is enough cedar going in to serve the beads' buffering function.

(As an aside, Fuji's Artsorb beads (beads with Lithium-Chloride) are repackaged and sold by at least one reputable bead vendor.)

I'm not sure what an active humidifier is. Is it the kind with the centrifugal wheel that spins off tiny droplets. I understand that they can cause a white dust to settle out of the air. There are several technologies available. Maybe the wick type would be best if I could find one with enough capacity. The wicks are replaceable, so when they build up with calcium they are tossed.

There is also the heated element type, wet brick, and ultrasonic. Do they make one with a "flux capacitor"?

Active humidifier: has a fan.
Passive humidifer: doesn't have a fan.

(more or less)

The big wheel kind is no different from a wick/pleated filter/wet brick - they're all "evaporative" - essentially just like a wet towel with a fan blowing on the towel. Advantage: cheap. Disadvantages: The towel eventually gums up with whatever junk is in the water (usually calcium) and you replace it. Bad stuff can grow on the towel. You also can't turn them off, you can just switch them from active (fan on) to passive (fan off). (This is why some Cigar Oases have flapper valves.)

The second kind atomizes the water, either with pressure (like a spray bottle), or by shaking the water (ultrasonic), or some other method. These are the kind that generate white dust (with tap water) because all the junk that is gumming up the towel in the first type gets dumped into the air with this type. Hence RO water filtration, etc. Advantages: more effective than the above type (gets more moisture into the air faster and with less noise for the same footprint). Turns off. Less maintenance. Disadvantages: needs clean water to avoid the white dust, and a fairly large air space (i.e., they won't work that well in a typical cabinet humidor).

The third kind heats the water to convert the water to steam. This kind (obviously) generates heat, so isn't used that much until you get into humidifying large areas (unless you want the heat - remember Vicks Vaporizers?). Advantages: Steam is clean (germ-wise), and a steam humidifier is the most efficient. Disadvantage: highest initial cost. Probably can't be used for your application, although Honeywell does have some that might work.

Regardless of type, the important things are to: move the humidity (i.e., air) around - even when the humidifier is "off" (which is why Oust fans are so useful in Vinotemps, etc.); use a good humidistat, located properly; and, because humidistats work on RH and not absolute humidity, control temperature fluctuations.

You're storing closed boxes, so you don't have to get too fancy IMHO. Noise is probably not a huge concern, either. Myself, I'd start simple, although you might as well put in the plumbing now. Good luck!

(My humidifier was bucket of water with an aquarium heater and air stones in it - but I suspect that you don't want to get that simple )

[DeeDubya]

Craig,

That's some good information. Thanks for taking the time to help. Let me get a little further along with the project. I will have a "lot" of cedar in there for good RH buffering. I'll post some pics later today of current progress.

[EGQ]

Hopefully I've found a better choice for a humidifier. This unit is less expensive, will not require the osmosis system and maintain up to 3000 cu ft. My humidor has approx 600 cu ft so this thing should just loaf. I've got a water softener so the normal calcium build-up should not be a problem.

"The Trion 707U Humidifier System incorporates all the features necessary to properly humidify a large area in a simple Do-It-Yourself kit. This system is designed to connect directly to a water source, will automatically refill, and a single unit can maintain up to 75-80% relative humidity in an area as large as 3000 cubic feet. The 707U is a hard wire system and will require access to electricity. To provide a measurement and reading of the exact humidity, a separate hygrometer gauge is needed."

No space for 216 lbs of beads? Sounds like a fundamental design flaw...

[Roger]

I am certainly jealous of your project! I would hope that I could some day at least build a wall unit, but that is the way it goes. I can't wait to see your pics on that... even now I am drooling! LOL Good luck with your project I hope it is a great success! Roger

[Roger]

I did not realize you had pics on this thread already. Wow! Awesome!

[DeeDubya]

Moisture laden air (higher RH) is lighter than dry air. That's right.
Yep, fortunately it has changed my plans for the intake/supply arrangement for the humidifier and I have avoided a major fuck-up. I was planning to pull air into the bypass humidifier from down low and discharge it high hoping for a better RH balance within the humidor. Not so. I need to pull mid to upper level air into the humidifier and blow it downward. Here's why...

Effect of water vapor
The addition of water vapor to air (making the air humid) reduces the density of the air, which may at first appear contrary to logic.

This occurs because the molecular mass of water (18) is less than the molecular mass of air (around 29). For any gas, at a given temperature and pressure, the number of molecules present is constant for a particular volume. So when water molecules (vapor) are introduced to the air, the number of air molecules must reduce by the same number in a given volume, without the pressure or temperature increasing. Hence the mass per unit volume of the gas (its density) decreases.

The density of humid air may be calculated as a mixture of ideal gases. In this case, the partial pressure of water vapor is known as the vapor pressure. Using this method, error in the density calculation is less than 0.2% in the range of −10 °C to 50 °C. The density of humid air is found by:

[1]
Where:

Density of the humid air (kg/m³)
pd = Partial pressure of dry air (Pa)
Rd = Specific gas constant for dry air, 287.05 J/(kg·K)
T = Temperature (K)
pv = Pressure of water vapor (Pa)
Rv = Specific gas constant for water vapor, 461.495 J/(kg·K)
The vapor pressure of water may be calculated from the saturation vapor pressure and relative humidity. It is found by:


Where:

pv = Vapor pressure of water
Relative humidity
psat = Saturation vapor pressure
The saturation vapor pressure of water at any given temperature is the vapor pressure when relative humidity is 100%. A simplification of the regression [1] used to find this, can be formulated as:


IMPORTANT:

This will give a result in mbar (millibar), 1 mbar = 0.001 bar = 0.1 kPa = 100 Pa
pd is found considering partial pressure, resulting in:

Where p simply notes the absolute pressure in the observed system.

Well Slap me Naked.

[craig]

Hmm. Discharge high, absorb low, is what I was taught. This may simply be due to convenience rather than science, though. I guess I could dig out a textbook ...

I'm not disagreeing with the density calculation - but I am guessing (GUESSING) that differences in temperature trump humidity. Temp is not constant, which causes air currents which move the humidity around. Then you realize air is not an ideal gas; it is a mixture, but the equation is meant for ideal gases, and eventually you realize that you need a cigar

A desktop oscillating fan in that room would probably have a big effect on RH distribution.

I'll try to remember to ask a friend of mine (who should know the answer) about this the next time I see him. Unfortunately, we just had lunch yesterday, so I probably won't see him again until July.

The room is looking better and better! I'd consider a smaller cigar cutter, though.