I feel so old and SO naive

[CoventryCat86]

After a 3 second google search for --percentage of population with access to public transportation--


http://www.nal.usda.gov/ric/ricpubs/publictrans.htm


" <snip> Public transportation is available in approximately sixty percent of all rural counties nationwide, for a total of about 1,200 systems (Stommes, Brown, and Houston, 2002). About two-thirds of rural systems operate in single counties or are city/town in scope; only about one out of four rural transit providers operate in a multi-county area. About 60 percent of rural transit providers are public bodies, and roughly a third are nonprofit agencies; only five percent are private companies or tribal entities. <snip>"

60% obviously isn't a vast majority, but it certainly isn't "The reality either way you want to cut it (percentage of population served by public buses or percentage of land area served by public buses) it's incredibly small."


Also, I found this tidbit from here- http://www.unitedweride.gov/1_128_ENG_HTML.htm
"In 2001, on average, American households devoted 19.3 percent of every dollar spent to transportation expenses. This is the second largest expense category – more than three times the cost of health care – adding up to $7,633 per family annually just to get around. Housing, at $13,011 per year is the only category that exceeds transportation as an expenditure." (Surface Transportation Policy Project, July 2003 )

--Apparently my $1300 estimate, even for the handy guy who does his own wrenching, looks woefully low.

No hefty, you're quoting something that is different from what I'm talking about. The issue is BUS ROUTES, BUS PASSES, etc., that ashauler first raised, not all forms of public transportation that not all citizens qualify for so your "60%" number is irrelevant in this case. There is no way in the world you're going to convince anyone that 60% of the population of North America or 60% of the area of North America is presently served by public transportation buses that are available to all citizens (because while things like Dial-A-Ride serve my community, they are not available to just anyone, you have to either be disabled or on some sort of public assistance in order to use the service). Nice try but that is definitely a "swing and a miss" even though ashauler doesn't see it that way because he's only at the point now where he just wants to argue for the sake of arguing. You probably don't see it that way either but I'm still holding out hope for you.

Your other number of $7,633.00 per year or almost $650.00 per month for transportation expenses is ridiculous and even you have to admit it's unrealistic just as your "60%" one is too. "United We Ride" great job hefty, that's a real unbiased, credible and reliable organization that most definitely has no motivation to distort reality. Never mind, it MUST be true, after all you found it on the internet!

Another example of statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.......

[CoventryCat86]

No Bill the question was asked directly to him. He was asked "Do you travel by donkey." and then question by the group farther based on the initial question be asked of 1 specific persoie. JiveTurkey one could logically deduce that when JiveTurkey answerred with his reasons for his choice that the reasons were his own and simply for his particular situation. You, Bill chose to make an argument where none and none should exist and you chose to call out a member on something that appears to me was simply an excuse to call someone out. Say what you will but that is my opinion. I chose to interact now because I feel it is a crock of shit that you felt the need to brow beat a decent member of this board into saying what you wanted them to say just for the hell of it. Your bullshit argument as certainly proven nothing to the rest of the community other than how nitpicky you will be with everyone's statements. It's is the job of a self moderated community to make sure that asshats don't stick around long and it is also the job of a self moderated community to make sure long standing members realize when they themselves are being asshats. Bill you are behaving like an asshat in this thread. I am asking you as someone that has spoken with you and supported you often to knock it off. You make your own choice with it Bill.

I'm not "brow beating" jiveturkey so you "knock it off." Great, you have your opinion and I have mine, good for you and good for me. I think you're being an "asshat" in this thread so there, I have my opinion and you have yours.

Since you're on "asshat" patrol now Nate, why not go tell that clovecigar guy he's an asshat too instead of continuing your personal crusade here with me long after jiveturkey and I resolved the issue days ago.

[badwhale]

No hefty, you're quoting something that is different from what I'm talking about. The issues is BUS ROUTES, BUS PASSES, etc., that ashauler first raised, not all forms of public transportation that not all citizens qualify for so your "60%" number is irrelevant in this case. There is no way in the world you're going to convince anyone that 60% of the population of North America or 60% of the area of North America is presently served by public transportation buses that are available to all citizens (because while things like Dial-A-Ride serve my community, they are not available to just anyone, you have to either be disabled or on some sort of public assistance in order to use the service). Nice try but that is definitely a "swing and a miss" even though ashauler doesn't see it that way because he's only at the point now where he just wants to argue for the sake of arguing. You probably don't see it that way either but I'm still holding out hope for you.

Your other number of $7,633.00 per year or almost $650.00 per month for transportation expenses is ridiculous and even you have to admit it's unrealistic just as your "60%" one is too. "United We Ride" great job hefty, that's a real unbiased, credible and reliable organization that most definitely has no motivation to distort reality. Never mind, it MUST be true, after all you found it on the internet!

Another example of statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.......

I would have to assume that 7633 is a number that includes an individual or family that has a car payment PLUS the operating expenses. About 10yrs ago, I had a $375/mo car payment. Not everybody has the time or patience or know-how to fix their own stuff. In that case, 650/month doesn't seem absurd, especially if you drive say 100 miles to work a day.

I don't know, but to me it seems like we stopped arguing about the "numbers" a while ago and now we're arguing just to argue.

Will

[CoventryCat86]

I would have to assume that 7633 is a number that includes an individual or family that has a car payment PLUS the operating expenses. About 10yrs ago, I had a $375/mo car payment. Not everybody has the time or patience or know-how to fix their own stuff. In that case, 650/month doesn't seem absurd, especially if you drive say 100 miles to work a day.

I don't know, but to me it seems like we stopped arguing about the "numbers" a while ago and now we're arguing just to argue.

Will

Well Will, if you go way back, JiveTurkey initially made the distinction between outright owning the car or having payments (he said "even if the car is paid off") which was never an issue with me from the beginning with Jive. If you don't have a job and own the car outright then $650.00 a month is beyond absurd, it's completely unrealistic. And as I'm sure you know, it's very possible to own a 15 to 20 year old car and have nothing go wrong with it for two years meaning that you have no repair expenses.

My step daughter owns a 1989 Buick Park Avenue, she doesn't work because right now, she's fighting cancer and cannot work. She still has to go to the store for food and clothes and activities associated with her 8 year old son. She puts about 4,500 miles a year on her car. She's had the car for three years now and has not incurred one, single repair expense during that time other than oil changes which can be done at a local quik-stop oil change place for less than $20.00. If you use a good filter, you don't need to change your oil for 7,500 miles so she's only changed the oil twice in three years.

So yeah, $650.00 a month is absurd...... The car gets 23 mpg so she spends a little over $50.00 a month on gasoline and around $40.00 per month on auto insurance. Property taxes on a car in Connecticut that is more than 20 years old are only ten bucks a year, registration is $45.00 per year and cars over 20 years old are not required to be emission tested so there are no yearly inspection fees. She even beat the $1,300.00 per year that most of you think is way too low but at least I'm giving a real life example here instead of some made up $hit like hefty found on Al Gore's internet.

And there is no bus service or bus passes in East Haddam, CT.

[ashauler]

No hefty, you're quoting something that is different from what I'm talking about. The issues is BUS ROUTES, BUS PASSES, etc., that ashauler first raised, not all forms of public transportation that not all citizens qualify for so your "60%" number is irrelevant in this case. There is no way in the world you're going to convince anyone that 60% of the population of North America or 60% of the area of North America is presently served by public transportation buses that are available to all citizens (because while things like Dial-A-Ride serve my community, they are not available to just anyone, you have to either be disabled or on some sort of public assistance in order to use the service). Nice try but that is definitely a "swing and a miss" even though ashauler doesn't see it that way because he's only at the point now where he just wants to argue for the sake of arguing. You probably don't see it that way either but I'm still holding out hope for you.

Your other number of $7,633.00 per year or almost $650.00 per month for transportation expenses is ridiculous and even you have to admit it's unrealistic just as your "60%" one is too. "United We Ride" great job hefty, that's a real unbiased, credible and reliable organization that most definitely has no motivation to distort reality. Never mind, it MUST be true, after all you found it on the internet!

Another example of statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.......

Wrong.

You expanded your assertion to "any form of public transportation." I mentioned that a couple of posts back, but, evidently you've just chosen to ignore it. Sure, I mentioned busses and bus passes, and I still maintain that more than an "incredibly small" percentage of the population of North America is indeed served by public busses. I've asked you to prove me wrong. You haven't.

Now you've determined my motivations as well as tried to tell jive what his "real" motivation was. Your arrogance and hypocrisy are sprinkled throughout this thread, is obvious, and most definetly is not becoming of you. Even making statements such as these, I've maintained a level of respect that you have not returned. Instead, you have chosen to call me names and ignore my questions. Nice, adult-like move!! All strong positions are defended this way, surely.

Now you're insinuating that hefty is a liar. Boy, what a fuckin' shame Bill. Are you just going to keep this up until you've successfully insulted and alienated yourself from everyone who disagrees with your actions in this thread? Wait, disregard that, it was a question.

Now you can add hefty to the apology list, IMO, of course.

[heftysmokes]

No hefty, you're quoting something that is different from what I'm talking about. The issue is BUS ROUTES, BUS PASSES, etc., that ashauler first raised, not all forms of public transportation that not all citizens qualify for so your "60%" number is irrelevant in this case. There is no way in the world you're going to convince anyone that 60% of the population of North America or 60% of the area of North America is presently served by public transportation buses that are available to all citizens (because while things like Dial-A-Ride serve my community, they are not available to just anyone, you have to either be disabled or on some sort of public assistance in order to use the service). Nice try but that is definitely a "swing and a miss" even though ashauler doesn't see it that way because he's only at the point now where he just wants to argue for the sake of arguing. You probably don't see it that way either but I'm still holding out hope for you.

Your other number of $7,633.00 per year or almost $650.00 per month for transportation expenses is ridiculous and even you have to admit it's unrealistic just as your "60%" one is too. "United We Ride" great job hefty, that's a real unbiased, credible and reliable organization that most definitely has no motivation to distort reality. Never mind, it MUST be true, after all you found it on the internet!

Another example of statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.......

You're right, Bill. I searched for hours to find statistics to back up my arguments and finally stumbled across this crazy left-wing website. Oh, no, wait...

After a 3 second google search for --percentage of population with access to public transportation--

I'm glad you looked at the name of the link, or maybe even clicked on it. If you would have found the actual part that I quoted, you would have seen that 7600 number was taken from the "Surface Transportation Policy Project, July 2003" Oh, wait, that's a non-profit. Fuck, nevermind, I'm sure they're up to no good making up numbers.

And you're right about about the bullshit $7600 number. I wish our yearly auto budget was so low. Good for your daughter's thriftiness, (and sorry for her illness) but if you think she's the norm you have a fucking screw loose.
Here's another "real life example"...720/month in car payments (8640), 140/month auto insurance (1680), $150/month gas (1800), $80 for 4 oil changes/year (320), $500/registration.......for a grand total of $12940. I'm not saying that's normal, either, but that 7600 number is starting to look more like the average.

And don't you call me a fucking liar. Oh, wait, I know where this will go, you'll say "Where did I call you a liar? If you look at what I wrote, blah blah blah, you'll see I never said 'hefty is a liar'" but I really don't think you're fooling anyone with the double talk.

Edit To Add: I'm done with this thread. If anyone has anything to say to me about the lies I'm spewing, feel free to do so via PM.

[ggiese]

This goofy website did not let me post what I originally created - using my real numbers of my actual transportation costs (i.e. car payments, routine maintenance costs, insurance, gas, registration, parking, tolls, etc.) for two roughly 6 year old vehicles (nothing special) - and I don't drive a heck of a lot of miles per year (roughly 12k). I ain't recreating the matrix - it sucked putting it together!!! But trust me - it came out to roughly $16k/yr.

I also took one of the vehicles out of the equation and calculated public transportation into the mix - that still had me at over $10k/yr. That puts my situation exceeding the 2001 "household" survey by over 30% or more no matter how I sliced it. ...and that was only for 2 vehicles - my wife's and mine. I can't begin to imagine how much the 3 other vehicles that are parked in my driveway on a daily basis, driven by the three other family members in my household, would add to that matrix.

I still concur with Jive Turkey - if I could get to a point where I only rode a bicycle, I'd be MUCH better off...

[CoventryCat86]

You're right, Bill. I searched for hours to find statistics to back up my arguments and finally stumbled across this crazy left-wing website. Oh, no, wait...



I'm glad you looked at the name of the link, or maybe even clicked on it. If you would have found the actual part that I quoted, you would have seen that 7600 number was taken from the "Surface Transportation Policy Project, July 2003" Oh, wait, that's a non-profit. Fuck, nevermind, I'm sure they're up to no good making up numbers.

And you're right about about the bullshit $7600 number. I wish our yearly auto budget was so low. Good for your daughter's thriftiness, (and sorry for her illness) but if you think she's the norm you have a fucking screw loose.
Here's another "real life example"...720/month in car payments (8640), 140/month auto insurance (1680), $150/month gas (1800), $80 for 4 oil changes/year (320), $500/registration.......for a grand total of $12940. I'm not saying that's normal, either, but that 7600 number is starting to look more like the average.

And don't you call me a fucking liar. Oh, wait, I know where this will go, you'll say "Where did I call you a liar? If you look at what I wrote, blah blah blah, you'll see I never said 'hefty is a liar'" but I really don't think you're fooling anyone with the double talk.

Edit To Add: I'm done with this thread. If anyone has anything to say to me about the lies I'm spewing, feel free to do so via PM.

You are doing what ashauler and some others are doing, getting all sensitive and reading things into what I said and you're coming up wrong. I did not call YOU a liar or insinuate you are one, my "Another example of statistics don't lie but liars use statistics....... " was clearly directed at the site where you dug up the questionable statistics, NOT AT YOU so don't you and Jamie start jumping to conclusions and continue to either mistakenly think I'm saying things I'm not or you and Jamie are doing it deliberately just to be assholes. Either way the both of you are wrong and now you're just trying to start trouble which you're free to do anytime you like.

And Jaime, I think you're going off the deep end which as with Hefty, you're free to do anytime and any day you like so don't let me stop you.

[CoventryCat86]

I still concur with Jive Turkey - if I could get to a point where I only rode a bicycle, I'd be MUCH better off...

I agree with you and Jive but unfortunately for me, it's completely impractical and it sounds like it is for you too.

[badwhale]

I agree with you and Jive but unfortunately for me, it's completely impractical and it sounds like it is for you too.

But, it's not universally "dirt cheap" either, or it's impractical for everyone to make it dirt cheap for themselves.

[CoventryCat86]

Wrong.

You expanded your assertion to "any form of public transportation." I mentioned that a couple of posts back, but, evidently you've just chosen to ignore it. Sure, I mentioned busses and bus passes, and I still maintain that more than an "incredibly small" percentage of the population of North America is indeed served by public busses. I've asked you to prove me wrong. You haven't.

Now you've determined my motivations as well as tried to tell jive what his "real" motivation was. Your arrogance and hypocrisy are sprinkled throughout this thread, is obvious, and most definetly is not becoming of you. Even making statements such as these, I've maintained a level of respect that you have not returned. Instead, you have chosen to call me names and ignore my questions. Nice, adult-like move!! All strong positions are defended this way, surely.

Now you're insinuating that hefty is a liar. Boy, what a fuckin' shame Bill. Are you just going to keep this up until you've successfully insulted and alienated yourself from everyone who disagrees with your actions in this thread? Wait, disregard that, it was a question.

Now you can add hefty to the apology list, IMO, of course.

No Jamie, you're wrong. I didn't say or "expand (my) assertion." If you claim I did, please point it out to me because I honestly don't see it that way.

Of course if you're still hell bent on arguing just for the sake of arguing and making things up then I guess I'm looking forward to see what you'll come up with next.

EDIT, you're were right, I was wrong, I went back and looked and found it in post #76, I'm sorry. I did say "any form of public transportation", I forgot I said that. I meant to limit it to buses and bus routes in response to what you had brought up earlier. Again, I apologize for being wrong and causing confusion.

[ashauler]

You are doing what ashauler and some others are doing, getting all sensitive and reading things into what I said and you're coming up wrong. I did not call YOU a liar or insinuate you are one, my "Another example of statistics don't lie but liars use statistics....... " was clearly directed at the site where you dug up the questionable statistics, NOT AT YOU so don't you and Jamie start jumping to conclusions and continue to either mistakenly think I'm saying things I'm not or you and Jamie are doing it deliberately just to be assholes. Either way the both of you are wrong and now you're just trying to start trouble which you're free to do anytime you like.

And Jaime, I think you're going off the deep end which as with Hefty, you're free to do anytime and any day you like so don't let me stop you.

LMMFAO. You tried to turn this political, violating board rules btw, and you didn't succeed. You still haven't answered my question as to who brought up the occupy people and why. All you Bill, all you.

I'm sorry that you think I'm going off the deep end. Your concern for my mental health is touching; odd and misplaced, but touching none-the-less. Sensitive....me, really? Again, sorry, but I find that laughable.

If indeed I am "going off the deep end" I would expect to be told that by other senior members of the board.....my pm box isn't full, and I see nothing in it chastising me for my behavior here, nor do I see any posts in this thread, other than yours, confronting me and/or telling me I'm going "off the deep end".

You have made no effort to refute my claims with facts and instead have chosen to insult and call names. IMO, anyone with a modicum of common sense will see this thread for what it is: You treating a newer member badly for no reason and getting called on it. Nothing more, nothing less. I've been active in it for the sole reason that I feel somewhat responsible for your attempted shit on JiveTurkey, since I asked him the question.

Now you're trying to squirm out of the fact that you insinuated hefty was a liar. Who "used" the statistics in this thread Bill? The website that produced them didn't post them here, Aaron did. See, if you wanna get all technical and shit, that's cool too.....you posted "liars use statistics", not "produce" or "publish".

Anyway, I think I'm pretty well done with this thread until such time as you can either:
1. Factually refute my claims.
2. Answer the questions posed to you in this thread.

If you can factually refute my claim that more than a "very small percentage" of the population of North America is served by public transportation, I'll admit my error, because I'm an adult, and that's the way it should be done. If you can't, admit it, or just STFU....either way, makes me no difference.

[CoventryCat86]

LMMFAO. You tried to turn this political, violating board rules btw, and you didn't succeed. You still haven't answered my question as to who brought up the occupy people and why. All you Bill, all you.

I'm sorry that you think I'm going off the deep end. Your concern for my mental health is touching; odd and misplaced, but touching none-the-less. Sensitive....me, really? Again, sorry, but I find that laughable.

If indeed I am "going off the deep end" I would expect to be told that by other senior members of the board.....my pm box isn't full, and I see nothing in it chastising me for my behavior here, nor do I see any posts in this thread, other than yours, confronting me and/or telling me I'm going "off the deep end".

You have made no effort to refute my claims with facts and instead have chosen to insult and call names. IMO, anyone with a modicum of common sense will see this thread for what it is: You treating a newer member badly for no reason and getting called on it. Nothing more, nothing less. I've been active in it for the sole reason that I feel somewhat responsible for your attempted shit on JiveTurkey, since I asked him the question.

Now you're trying to squirm out of the fact that you insinuated hefty was a liar. Who "used" the statistics in this thread Bill? The website that produced them didn't post them here, Aaron did. See, if you wanna get all technical and shit, that's cool too.....you posted "liars use statistics", not "produce" or "publish".

Anyway, I think I'm pretty well done with this thread until such time as you can either:
1. Factually refute my claims.
2. Answer the questions posed to you in this thread.

If you can factually refute my claim that more than a "very small percentage" of the population of North America is served by public transportation, I'll admit my error, because I'm an adult, and that's the way it should be done. If you can't, admit it, or just STFU....either way, makes me no difference.

You truly are going off the deep end, I did not try to make this "political" and as far as my reference to the "occupy" movement, you must have missed the icon because it was meant to be nothing more than a joke. You're just trying to turn that into something it's not. Jive, if I offended you with the "occupy" wisecrack because Jamie thinks I did, I'm sorry because that was not my intent. Jamie, I don't give a rat's ass what you think because you're out of control and you're off the deep end.

And no you asshole, I did not insinuate Hefty was a liar, so you can stop that $hit anytime now.

[cigarsarge]

I think it is time to cool it guys...

[ashauler]

You truly are going off the deep end, I did not try to make this "political" and as far as my reference to the "occupy" movement, you must have missed the icon because it was meant to be nothing more than a joke. You're just trying to turn that into something it's not. Jive, if I offended you with the "occupy" wisecrack because Jamie thinks I did, I'm sorry because that was not my intent. Jamie, I don't give a rat's ass what you think because you're out of control and you're off the deep end.

And no you asshole, I did not insinuate Hefty was a liar, so you can stop that $hit anytime now.

Cool, you answered a question, thank you. Your answer begs follow up questions, but that's ok, no need. Perhaps it wasn't JiveTurkey that was offended, but, wait, you don't give a rat's ass.

OK, Ken message received, I'm done.

[Roham]

Thank god this is in the "Humor" section.... lol

[JiveTurkey]

Thank god this is in the "Humor" section.... lol

[cinda]

Now this was funny!

[ggiese]

It's a CONSPIRACY, I tell you!!! My work firewall blocks YouTube - you're purposefully taunting me, JiveTurkey - I just KNOW IT!!!


...and what's with Cinda rubbing salt in my wounds.

[JiveTurkey]

Try this: http://www.collegehumor.com/video/63...uck-commercial