I feel so old and SO naive

[JiveTurkey]

Do you travel by donkey?

Rarely if ever. It's usually by a bike--powered by me.

[ashauler]

Rarely if ever. It's usually by a bike--powered by me.

Just curious....for health reasons...philosophical reasons...$$$ reasons....why no car? Honestly, I'd love to live where public transportation was good enough that I didn't need to drive, or have the physical ability to ride a bike the 20 miles one way to work every day. Sadly, I'm blessed with neither.

[JiveTurkey]

Just curious....for health reasons...philosophical reasons...$$$ reasons....why no car? Honestly, I'd love to live where public transportation was good enough that I didn't need to drive, or have the physical ability to ride a bike the 20 miles one way to work every day. Sadly, I'm blessed with neither.

All of the above plus environmental (I guess that falls under philosophical). It's actually very nice not having something that requires so much expense and maintenance. We've found there are more appropriate ways to travel. While a car is very convenient and fits most needs, it's also super expensive, even if the car is paid off: insurance, gas, oil, other maintenance, repairs, etc. We've been car ownership-free for almost a year now. We do all our shopping by bike and trailer, travel by bike and occasionally bus, and have rented a car once. We carpool when needed and chip in for gas.

[kevin7]

Thats cool man

[ashauler]

Thats cool man

I agree.

[CoventryCat86]

All of the above plus environmental (I guess that falls under philosophical). It's actually very nice not having something that requires so much expense and maintenance. We've found there are more appropriate ways to travel. While a car is very convenient and fits most needs, it's also super expensive, even if the car is paid off: insurance, gas, oil, other maintenance, repairs, etc. We've been car ownership-free for almost a year now. We do all our shopping by bike and trailer, travel by bike and occasionally bus, and have rented a car once. We carpool when needed and chip in for gas.

Well, living in a college town (where Oregon State University is located) you can probably get away with that but the other 99.999% of America, it's pretty much impossible to survive without a car.

I've never financed a car in my life, I do all of my own repairs, I don't waste money on collision & comprehensive insurance. I drive fancy cars like Jaguars and top of the line Olds 98s but I buy them when they're ten to fifteen years old for pennies on the dollar from their original selling price. My car expenses are negligible compared to all of life's other expenses like housing, electricity, taxes, health care, oil, propane, food, cable, internet, phones, etc., oh yeah I forgot CIGARS!

Taking all of the rest of life's expenses into consideration (even for a poor, starving college student) I'd hardly call a car "super expensive." If you do it correctly, it's dirt cheap.

Just admit it, you're choice to not own a car is pretty much an "environmental" statement (which is fine) and not really driven by the imagined "costs" you described.

[heftysmokes]

Wait, what?


Cheap car: $1000-3000
Killer Bike: $1000-3000 (of course you can go as low as 50 bucks for a fixer upper on craigslist, dump ~100 into it and you're in for under $200)

Gas:
Cheap car: $75/month (that's low. At $3.55/gallon and 25 mpg, you're looking at driving ~500 miles/month, which is half of what's considered average)
Bike: $0

Oil change:
Cheap car: Do it yourself, ~$15/3 months...or, if you're only driving 500 miles/month, and want to change it every 3k miles, $15/6 months
Bike: $0

Insurance:
Cheap car: 30/month. I'm using what we pay for only liability on our sweet-ass 1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager mini-van. Side note, it's actually more expensive for full coverage on our old cheap bomber of a van than it is for full coverage on our 2011 Cruze or our 2005 Tahoe. Reason being, newer vehicles have way higher safety ratings, so medical costs in an accident are way lower.
Bike:$0

CAR:
Gas (900) + Oil (60) + Insurance (360) comes to ~$1320/year operating cost. That doesn't include tires, air filters, belts, beaded seat covers, as well as parking meters/garages, toll booths, etc.


Bike:
Tubes, tires, lube ~75 year. Throw in another 50 for the occasional bus pass and your still looking at 10% of the cost of car ownership.


So while it may very well be his " choice to not own a car is pretty much an "environmental" statement," the costs are definitely not "imagined."

[CoventryCat86]

So while it may very well be his " choice to not own a car is pretty much an "environmental" statement," the costs are definitely not "imagined."

When he said they were "super expensive" that's "imagined" because it is.

$1,320.00 a year for total costs is dirt cheap. My property taxes are over six times that for a year, my electric bill is three times that for a year, my internet/cable bill is exactly that for a year. Even with no job, my federal income tax bill is twice that for a year. Heating oil? How much do you pay? Honestly, this year, I have no idea what my total cost will be for the season but I just paid over three fucking fifty a gallon which means the minimum 200 gallon delivery was over 700.00 and I'll be lucky if that lasts me until the end of December. So if I could heat my house for $1,320.00 (your yearly car cost) I'd throw a party, invite you, pay for your plane fare and still have money left over.

The bottom line is his personal choice to forgo a car isn't because it's "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" because that's bull$hit.

Oh I forgot, I don't even have a mortgage but I'd be willing to bet an average rent or mortgage payment is $1,320.00 per MONTH meaning that the expense of a car is one twelfth of the simple cost of putting a roof over your head, excluding every other cost associated with just breathing.

[JiveTurkey]

Wait, what?


Cheap car: $1000-3000
Killer Bike: $1000-3000 (of course you can go as low as 50 bucks for a fixer upper on craigslist, dump ~100 into it and you're in for under $200)

Gas:
Cheap car: $75/month (that's low. At $3.55/gallon and 25 mpg, you're looking at driving ~500 miles/month, which is half of what's considered average)
Bike: $0

Oil change:
Cheap car: Do it yourself, ~$15/3 months...or, if you're only driving 500 miles/month, and want to change it every 3k miles, $15/6 months
Bike: $0

Insurance:
Cheap car: 30/month. I'm using what we pay for only liability on our sweet-ass 1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager mini-van. Side note, it's actually more expensive for full coverage on our old cheap bomber of a van than it is for full coverage on our 2011 Cruze or our 2005 Tahoe. Reason being, newer vehicles have way higher safety ratings, so medical costs in an accident are way lower.
Bike:$0

CAR:
Gas (900) + Oil (60) + Insurance (360) comes to ~$1320/year operating cost. That doesn't include tires, air filters, belts, beaded seat covers, as well as parking meters/garages, toll booths, etc.


Bike:
Tubes, tires, lube ~75 year. Throw in another 50 for the occasional bus pass and your still looking at 10% of the cost of car ownership.


So while it may very well be his " choice to not own a car is pretty much an "environmental" statement," the costs are definitely not "imagined."

Don't forget to add in the $2 lighter impulse buy at the gas station.

When he said they were "super expensive" that's "imagined" because it is.

$1,320.00 a year for total costs is dirt cheap. My property taxes are over six times that for a year, my electric bill is three times that for a year, my internet/cable bill is exactly that for a year. Even with no job, my federal income tax bill is twice that for a year. Heating oil? How much do you pay? Honestly, this year, I have no idea what my total cost will be for the season but I just paid over three fucking fifty a gallon which means the minimum 200 gallon delivery was over 700.00 and I'll be lucky if that lasts me until the end of December. So if I could heat my house for $1,320.00 (your yearly car cost) I'd throw a party, invite you, pay for your plane fare and still have money left over.

The bottom line is his personal choice to forgo a car isn't because it's "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" because that's bull$hit.

Maybe the word "super" in super expensive is debatable, but it is more expensive to own a car than not. Those expenses go towards other things I care more about. Going green often costs more; this is an example where it costs less. Going car-free is good for MY wallet and the environment--there's nothing bullshit about that. Your values, needs, circumstances differ than mine. I've found something that works well for me.

[heftysmokes]

When he said they were "super expensive" that's "imagined" because it is.

$1,320.00 a year for total costs is dirt cheap. My property taxes are over six times that for a year, my electric bill is three times that for a year, my internet/cable bill is exactly that for a year. Even with no job, my federal income tax bill is twice that for a year. Heating oil? How much do you pay? Honestly, this year, I have no idea what my total cost will be for the season but I just paid over three fucking fifty a gallon which means the minimum 200 gallon delivery was over 700.00 and I'll be lucky if that lasts me until the end of December. So if I could heat my house for $1,320.00 (your yearly car cost) I'd throw a party, invite you, pay for your plane fare and still have money left over.

The bottom line is his personal choice to forgo a car isn't because it's "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" because that's bull$hit.

I totally agree. $1300 for a year of operating a car is indeed dirt cheap. Actually, probably pretty much impossible. The problem with your argument is you're comparing the cost of car ownership to other expenses in your life that are necessities, not to the cost of owning just a bike. So, if you don't "have" to own a bike (which he obviously doesn't) $1300/year is a pretty expensive luxury.
You HAVE TO have heat (btw, our natural gas bill averages about 30/month since you asked), electricity, pay your taxes, etc. You (in this case I'm referring to jiveturkey) don't HAVE TO pay for a car.

Edit for your edit: Once again you're comparing car ownership to cost of living (rent/mortgage), not car ownership to bike ownership.

[CoventryCat86]

Ya know what? Cable and internet is super expensive even if your televisions and computers are paid for. Fug it, I'm calling the cable company right now, disconnecting my cable tv service and to hell with Al Gore's interweb, who needs it? Tomorrow, I'll take all my televisions and computers to the "environmentally safe" recycling center and feel good about myself that I've saved the world!

Am I "cool" now too?

[ashauler]

When he said they were "super expensive" that's "imagined" because it is.

$1,320.00 a year for total costs is dirt cheap. My property taxes are over six times that for a year, my electric bill is three times that for a year, my internet/cable bill is exactly that for a year. Even with no job, my federal income tax bill is twice that for a year. Heating oil? How much do you pay? Honestly, this year, I have no idea what my total cost will be for the season but I just paid over three fucking fifty a gallon which means the minimum 200 gallon delivery was over 700.00 and I'll be lucky if that lasts me until the end of December. So if I could heat my house for $1,320.00 (your yearly car cost) I'd throw a party, invite you, pay for your plane fare and still have money left over.

The bottom line is his personal choice to forgo a car isn't because it's "super expensive, even if the car is paid off" because that's bull$hit.

Oh I forgot, I don't even have a mortgage but I'd be willing to bet an average rent or mortgage payment is $1,320.00 per MONTH meaning that the expense of a car is one twelfth of the simple cost of putting a roof over your head, excluding every other cost associated with just breathing.

No, I would think it's his perception, not his imagination.

You're not really trying to tell jiveturkey why he feels as he does are you?

[heftysmokes]

When he said they were "super expensive" that's "imagined" because it is.

--I agree.

Just admit it, you're choice to not own a car is pretty much an "environmental" statement (which is fine) and not really driven by the imagined "costs" you described.

--This is the statement I was refuting. All I was saying is the costs of owning a car are not imagined and they're huge compared to our resident dirty hippie riding his bike everywhere . I wasn't saying a car is cheap compared to a mortgage payment or property taxes or heating oil. I was saying a bike is cheap compared to a car.