I don't believe it

[SmokinDVM]

Your link, a response by Guillermo Christenson, is interesting.
I only have one question...who the hell is Guillermo Christenson?

Paul Pillar is a known entity. His position, and expertise, is well known and heavily documented. I never heard of the other guy.

I suppose if you are willing to believe every article, by any person, in response to things they may or may not know about, well, I can see how all this confuses you.

This is along the same lines as the Retired Generals who served in Iraq, who came out against how rummy was handeling the whole thing. Fox produced their usual "foxperts" (people who are presented as experts on fox, who actually have no direct knowledge of what they speak), who said that those Generals who had actually had their boots on the ground in Iraq, were just disgruntled workers, and the fox-faithful ate it up.
Now we all know that those Generals know more of what was really going on than some idiot talking heads on fox. But, the more those "foxperts" and the neocons repeated the White House talking points, the more the sheeple believed that they were right.

[Shelby07]

Your link, a response by Guillermo Christenson, is interesting.
I only have one question...who the hell is Guillermo Christenson?

Paul Pillar is a known entity. His position, and expertise, is well known and heavily documented. I never heard of the other guy.

I suppose if you are willing to believe every article, by any person, in response to things they may or may not know about, well, I can see how all this confuses you.

This is along the same lines as the Retired Generals who served in Iraq, who came out against how rummy was handeling the whole thing. Fox produced their usual "foxperts" (people who are presented as experts on fox, who actually have no direct knowledge of what they speak), who said that those Generals who had actually had their boots on the ground in Iraq, were just disgruntled workers, and the fox-faithful ate it up.
Now we all know that those Generals know more of what was really going on than some idiot talking heads on fox. But, the more those "foxperts" and the neocons repeated the White House talking points, the more the sheeple believed that they were right.

OK. Bad example. I'll give you that. My point, not very well made, was that Pillar has his critics. He has openly criticized Bush and his policies since the beginning of the administration. It is fairly well known that he resents the fact that Bush and the rest of the intelligence community in this country, and indeed around the world, didn't agree with his assessment. My biggest problem with Pillar is that he believes the way to resolve disagreements with terrorists is to negotiate,. While I would love to believe that, I just can't. I don't believe that negotiations would have any lasting effect. I truly believe that the people we are fighting have no other agenda than to disrupt our society and kill as many of us as they can. They have nothing other than their religious beliefs to fight for and martyrdom, for them, is an honor, not a tragedy. The attempt in NY to blow up the Holland and Lincoln tunnels, and the plot that was unfolding to blow up 9 or 10 aircraft over the Atlantic supports that. And, of course, the attack on the WTC was completely unprovoked.

I am not a war monger. I would love to see this situation go away tomorrow and have our troops come home. Who wouldn't? But a quick withdrawl, in my opinion, would show our enemies that we can be beaten into submission, and would show our allies that we don't have the conviction to stay until the job is done. That, in my opinion, would be disasterous for the future security of our country. I believe the hate these people have for us is going to be around for a long, long time and we will have to continue to fight it far into the future.

One big reason that I don't feel comfortable with democratic leadership is their lack of consistency and conviction. The democratic party, in my opinion, create policy by bending to the poll of the day. They change their position quite frequently, depending on what is popular. Although this may seem like a good idea on the surface, the truth is that our government is a commonwealth, not a democracy. as I am sure you know. In a commonwealth, the people's responsibility is to vote for representatives to make the decisions and set policy that's best for the country, not to listen to the poll of the day and react. As you know, polls change weekly and I don't believe that changing our direction on a regular basis is the way that the country should be run.

Let me ask these questions, which might help me understand more where the democrats are coming from. What would the democrat's ideal resolution in Iraq be? What do they think the results would be if we pulled out of Iraq in the next 6 months or so? What is their plan for dealing with the threat from Iran and Korea? Going forward, what would they do to keep us safe from future attacks? Would their policy be proactive or reactive? Perhaps if I could get answers to those questions I could feel more comfortable with a democratic leadership, but honestly, just hearing that it's time for a change without knowing what that change would be leaves me cold.

[SmokinDVM]

OK. Bad example. I'll give you that. My point, not very well made, was that Pillar has his critics. He has openly criticized Bush and his policies since the beginning of the administration. It is fairly well known that he resents the fact that Bush and the rest of the intelligence community in this country, and indeed around the world, didn't agree with his assessment. My biggest problem with Pillar is that he believes the way to resolve disagreements with terrorists is to negotiate,. While I would love to believe that, I just can't. I don't believe that negotiations would have any lasting effect. I truly believe that the people we are fighting have no other agenda than to disrupt our society and kill as many of us as they can. They have nothing other than their religious beliefs to fight for and martyrdom, for them, is an honor, not a tragedy. The attempt in NY to blow up the Holland and Lincoln tunnels, and the plot that was unfolding to blow up 9 or 10 aircraft over the Atlantic supports that. And, of course, the attack on the WTC was completely unprovoked.

I am not a war monger. I would love to see this situation go away tomorrow and have our troops come home. Who wouldn't? But a quick withdrawl, in my opinion, would show our enemies that we can be beaten into submission, and would show our allies that we don't have the conviction to stay until the job is done. That, in my opinion, would be disasterous for the future security of our country. I believe the hate these people have for us is going to be around for a long, long time and we will have to continue to fight it far into the future.

One big reason that I don't feel comfortable with democratic leadership is their lack of consistency and conviction. The democratic party, in my opinion, create policy by bending to the poll of the day. They change their position quite frequently, depending on what is popular. Although this may seem like a good idea on the surface, the truth is that our government is a commonwealth, not a democracy. as I am sure you know. In a commonwealth, the people's responsibility is to vote for representatives to make the decisions and set policy that's best for the country, not to listen to the poll of the day and react. As you know, polls change weekly and I don't believe that changing our direction on a regular basis is the way that the country should be run.

Let me ask these questions, which might help me understand more where the democrats are coming from. What would the democrat's ideal resolution in Iraq be? What do they think the results would be if we pulled out of Iraq in the next 6 months or so? What is their plan for dealing with the threat from Iran and Korea? Going forward, what would they do to keep us safe from future attacks? Would their policy be proactive or reactive? Perhaps if I could get answers to those questions I could feel more comfortable with a democratic leadership, but honestly, just hearing that it's time for a change without knowing what that change would be leaves me cold.

Everybody has their critics. And actually many did agree with his assessments, they were just not allowed to voice their opinion.
A standard misconception about the Iraq war is that it really has anything to do with fighting terrorism. Our continued presence in the Middle East, as an occupying force, only serves to create more terrorists. The more time we spend wasting the lives of our Men, and our money, the fewer resources we have to work against the real terrorists.

The Democrats are, at least, discussing plans on how to best get out of Iraq. The idiots in power now have no plan, staying the course is not a plan. They claim things aren't as bad as the news reports, but it is really much worse. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...223363,00.html
I would much rather have discussions about how to fix the problem, than to have them pretend a problem doesn't exist.

There have been several plans presented by Democrats as to how to best address your exact questions. I haven't had any problem finding them. I think if you have, you really don't want to. I think it's ridiculous to continue to support an obviously flawed and failed plan, simply because you haven't listened to the other plans.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/pa12...51117iraq.html

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/n...2006_0620.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073100743.html

This is the reason you all think the Democrats don't have a plan.

[Shelby07]

Everybody has their critics. And actually many did agree with his assessments, they were just not allowed to voice their opinion.
A standard misconception about the Iraq war is that it really has anything to do with fighting terrorism. Our continued presence in the Middle East, as an occupying force, only serves to create more terrorists. The more time we spend wasting the lives of our Men, and our money, the fewer resources we have to work against the real terrorists.

Are you saying that we should pull out of the middle east totally? If so, how do you propose that we work against the "real" terrorists? Our methods are revealed by the NY Times and the ACLU and the democrats want to take away the Patriot Act (except, of course, when it comes time to vote. Then it's not politically convenient for them to stand by their convictions.)

The Democrats are, at least, discussing plans on how to best get out of Iraq. The idiots in power now have no plan, staying the course is not a plan. They claim things aren't as bad as the news reports, but it is really much worse. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...223363,00.html
I would much rather have discussions about how to fix the problem, than to have them pretend a problem doesn't exist.

There have been several plans presented by Democrats as to how to best address your exact questions. I haven't had any problem finding them. I think if you have, you really don't want to. I think it's ridiculous to continue to support an obviously flawed and failed plan, simply because you haven't listened to the other plans.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/pa12...51117iraq.html

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/n...2006_0620.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...073100743.html

This is the reason you all think the Democrats don't have a plan.

You have told me in your last couple of postings that I am not aware of the democratic "plan(s)" for exiting Iraq. You have said that all I have to do is look for them and I will see them, and have implied that once I see them it will be obvious to me how wonderful they are. In a sense, you have accused me of being a mindless zombie who listens to the FOX news network 24 hours a day and doesn't have the ability or the desire to think for myself. Did it occur to you that perhaps I had seen these "plans" and I don't think they are 1) better than what we are doing now or 2) viable? I am familiar with John Murtha's "plan" and also Kerry's "plan." You forgot to mention Al Gore, Joseph Biden, Hillary Clinton and Bob Graham. I have seen their proposals. I don't think they are any better than the Republican plan, and, in fact, I believe them to be less productive. It is all rethoric and political posturing.

I have heard basically 3 plans from various democrats, and rather than point to their articles, I will tell you in my own words what I heard them say. One involves withdrawing from Iraq immediately, Another involves setting a date for withdrawal or troop redeployment concentrate on training the Iraqi's to defend themselves (basically Bush's plan with a deadline) and the third is to redeploy troops into other areas where terrorists are. Well, in my mind, immediate withdrawal of all of our troops from the middle east will simply empower the terrorists who have vowed on their God to kill us. Setting a time line for a withdrawal will cause the terrorists to lay low until we leave, then there will be a blood bath since the Iraqi military is not yet ready to defend themselves against terrorists. Of course, Joe Biden would like to leave a single brigade in Iraq to take care of the "hot spots" that arise here and there after we leave. Again, the enemy (and rest assured, they are our "enemy") would just lay low until we leave then make short work of the Iraqi forces as well as our "hung out" brigade. In the third plan, which seems to be the one repeated by most democrats, we should not bring our troops home, but instead redeploy them to wherever the terrorists are. Well, quite frankly, that would be just about every other country in the middle east except Israel. Do we invade southern Lebanon to wipe out the Hezbollas or invade Northern Pakistan where there are Al Queda strongholds? Do we send troops to Iran, jordon and Syria? And what about Korea. What about terrorist cells in Europe? Do we redeploy our troops there too? In my mind, the democratic "plans" are not viable.

I have asked why I should vote democratic. One reason I don't think I can is because they are not unified. The other reason is because I believe they are simply politicizing the situation. We are an impatient people. We watch too many movies and think the world can be saved in 90 minutes, and if it isn't there must be a flaw in the plan. Our enemies are extremely patient and will wait years before they launch devistating and horriffic attacks on us and our way of life. Three years? Five Years? A hundred years? They are patient and relentless, and anyone who can't see that had better get their head out of the sand. This is going to be a long war, and we can't afford to let our enemy outwait us. Terrorism isn't going to go away because we grow impatient and decide to simply drop it. Say what you will about Bush, and say what you will about me for what I am about to say, but we have not been attacked since 2001, and I believe it is because of the job the current administration is doing. Could they do better? Sure. Are they failing? No.

I used to work in computer and network security and the problem with it was as long as we were doing a great job everybody thought we were a waste of money. Does anyone remember the huge AT&T nationwide phone outage several years ago? As long as we were doing our job no one saw any problems, so they assumed they weren't there. They didn't know, nor did they care, how difficult it was to keep the networks from being attacked and how many attacks were kept out. It's one of those things where the best result is seeing nothing. But because they saw nothing, they decided to cut funding. Within 3 months the networks were hacked and the consequences were devistating. The war on terror is like that. We don't see any threats so we forget that they are there. Well, they are there, and they will continue to be there for a very long time. The democratic plans are not solutions, they are a necessary part of a political chess game being played against the current administration (it's called politics.) It's designed to exasperate the public and gain strength for the next election, not by improving their own stature but by lowering public opinion of their political opponent. And there is firm evidence that they lack conviction in their "plans" in that every time one comes up for a vote they can't even get a party line concensus. I watched John Murtha attack Bush for 3 months and become the point man for the democratic attack on Bush's handling of Iraq. He was so forceful, and all the democrats were behind him. When the Republicans finally forced a vote on this "plan" he had been ranting about, his own party gave him 6 votes. Of course they faulted the Republicans because the plan "wasn't ready." Huh? And when Kerry introduced his plan for redeployment, the democrats couldn't get a full party vote on that either. They couldn't even come to an agreement among themselves. This doesn't give me any warm fuzzy feelings that they have a very good plan.

I have spent time composing my posts so that my position can be made clear to you and you would have an opportunity to respond, not because I feel that my opinions are inferior to yours, but because I was truly interested in what you had to say. Instead you have given me the opportunity to read other people's words from left leaning publications and web sites, while at the same time accusing me of parroting FOX news. You can point me to links from the NY Times and Time magazine all day long, and I, in turn, can point you to the Wall Street Journal. That is not discussion. That is akin to parroting MSNBC vs FOX news. So if the answers to the questions in my previous posts are found in the links you gave me, then I have already heard them, considered them and respectfully disagree with them.

Something else I was taught in my years in Corporate America was how to negotiate with foreign cultures. One of the first things I learned was that I couldn't expect other cultures to think the same way I do. In order to put myself in their shoes I had to understand that I had never even seen their shoes, let alone been in them. They had not been "sensitized" to political correctness and they don't think or feel the same as we do. The American people are making a fatal mistake if they think terrorists will "talk" to us. Can you picture us negotiating with Bin Laden? Can you ever imagine a peaceful outcome to those "negotiations?" Could you ever see him and Hillary shaking hands in the rose garden? (Well, maybe you could.) We are dealing with a different culture that does not hold the same values as us. They don't think the same as us and they don't care about us. We treasure life. They use it as a weapon. This is a culture that has not changed since before Christianity and they have been at war for thousands of years. Do you think you can ever understand them? Do you think they will ever understand us? Perhaps the American people, in their high and mighty place in the world community, will give us all a chance to see this come November. I hope it doesn't happen, but it seems we have indeed forgotten and have moved on to other things.

[WhiteWidow]

One involves withdrawing from Iraq immediately,

Remember Vietnam? Yeah, still communist. The NVA leaders even attributed their victory to the American peace movement.

You bring up another good point about re-deployment with the question of where do we send them next? That is why I wish the rest of the world would finally decide they are fed up with this crap and do something about it. Its not our job alone to go to every country and fight.

[SmokinDVM]

You have told me in your last couple of postings that I am not aware of the democratic "plan(s)" for exiting Iraq. You have said that all I have to do is look for them and I will see them, and have implied that once I see them it will be obvious to me how wonderful they are. In a sense, you have accused me of being a mindless zombie who listens to the FOX news network 24 hours a day and doesn't have the ability or the desire to think for myself. Did it occur to you that perhaps I had seen these "plans" and I don't think they are 1) better than what we are doing now or 2) viable? I am familiar with John Murtha's "plan" and also Kerry's "plan." You forgot to mention Al Gore, Joseph Biden, Hillary Clinton and Bob Graham. I have seen their proposals. I don't think they are any better than the Republican plan, and, in fact, I believe them to be less productive. It is all rethoric and political posturing.

All of the “news” stations aside, do you really believe that the “stay the course” plan, leaving our troops in Iraq to act as targets for the insurgents (make no mistake, most of the “insurgents” aren’t terrorists as the dumbya admin. would like you to believe. They are Iraqi’s that want us out, just like the other 99% of the Iraqi population) is a good plan? Do you really think we’re winning the “hearts and minds”, or are we just creating more potential terrorists with every Iraqi death? How long do you think we can maintain a viable military presence in Iraq? How long before we have to bring back the Draft? Do you believe the neopuke plan is going to suddenly start to work, or are you willing to sacrifice unknown generations of our children to their cause? Do you think that our presence in Iraq will stop terrorist activity from continuing elsewhere (it has already been proven false with the current events in England)? Do you like the neopuke plan to pull 20 or 30 thousand troops out of Iraq in October, so they can gain a boost for the elections, and then send them back again? Is that political posturing? Would it be necessary if they really had a viable plan for ending our occupation in Iraq?
I don’t consider you a mindless zombie, however, I do consider anyone who supports the “no plan” plan to be insane. Insane in that they do something over and over again, getting the same disastrous result every time, but expecting a different one each time.

I have heard basically 3 plans from various democrats, and rather than point to their articles, I will tell you in my own words what I heard them say. One involves withdrawing from Iraq immediately, Another involves setting a date for withdrawal or troop redeployment concentrate on training the Iraqi's to defend themselves (basically Bush's plan with a deadline) and the third is to redeploy troops into other areas where terrorists are. Well, in my mind, immediate withdrawal of all of our troops from the middle east will simply empower the terrorists who have vowed on their God to kill us. Setting a time line for a withdrawal will cause the terrorists to lay low until we leave, then there will be a blood bath since the Iraqi military is not yet ready to defend themselves against terrorists. Of course, Joe Biden would like to leave a single brigade in Iraq to take care of the "hot spots" that arise here and there after we leave. Again, the enemy (and rest assured, they are our "enemy") would just lay low until we leave then make short work of the Iraqi forces as well as our "hung out" brigade. In the third plan, which seems to be the one repeated by most democrats, we should not bring our troops home, but instead redeploy them to wherever the terrorists are. Well, quite frankly, that would be just about every other country in the middle east except Israel. Do we invade southern Lebanon to wipe out the Hezbollas or invade Northern Pakistan where there are Al Queda strongholds? Do we send troops to Iran, jordon and Syria? And what about Korea. What about terrorist cells in Europe? Do we redeploy our troops there too? In my mind, the democratic "plans" are not viable.

Your main argument against all of the aforementioned plans is based on the incorrect assumption, which just happens to be the neopukes talking point and reason given for remaining in Iraq, that the insurgents in Iraq are actually terrorists. They are not. Ninety five percent of them are Iraqis that just want us to leave.
As to your question about where the Al Qaeda strongholds are, that’s exactly the problem with the “war” in Iraq. There are no “strongholds”, but rather a very loose connection of groups affiliated with them, spread throughout the World. So, why would continued action in Iraq deter them in any way? It wouldn’t. And, as has been proven in England and Spain, our resources would be much better utilized in the creation and implementation of intelligence operations to find, track, and neutralize the individual groups of terrorists, and to actually work towards the security of our own borders.

[SmokinDVM]

I have asked why I should vote democratic. One reason I don't think I can is because they are not unified. The other reason is because I believe they are simply politicizing the situation. We are an impatient people. We watch too many movies and think the world can be saved in 90 minutes, and if it isn't there must be a flaw in the plan. Our enemies are extremely patient and will wait years before they launch devistating and horriffic attacks on us and our way of life. Three years? Five Years? A hundred years? They are patient and relentless, and anyone who can't see that had better get their head out of the sand. This is going to be a long war, and we can't afford to let our enemy outwait us. Terrorism isn't going to go away because we grow impatient and decide to simply drop it. Say what you will about Bush, and say what you will about me for what I am about to say, but we have not been attacked since 2001, and I believe it is because of the job the current administration is doing. Could they do better? Sure. Are they failing? No.

You continue to confuse the “war” in Iraq with the problem of terrorists. In effect you’re parroting the inane neopuke line of “we’re fighting them over there, so we don’t have to fight them over here”. The bombings in Spain, England, and the current English arrests, have proven that idiotic mantra completely and utterly false.
Until people realize that fighting terrorists has NOTHING to do with fighting a country, we will continue to be at risk for more attacks.

I used to work in computer and network security and the problem with it was as long as we were doing a great job everybody thought we were a waste of money. Does anyone remember the huge AT&T nationwide phone outage several years ago? As long as we were doing our job no one saw any problems, so they assumed they weren't there. They didn't know, nor did they care, how difficult it was to keep the networks from being attacked and how many attacks were kept out. It's one of those things where the best result is seeing nothing. But because they saw nothing, they decided to cut funding. Within 3 months the networks were hacked and the consequences were devistating. The war on terror is like that. We don't see any threats so we forget that they are there. Well, they are there, and they will continue to be there for a very long time. The democratic plans are not solutions, they are a necessary part of a political chess game being played against the current administration (it's called politics.) It's designed to exasperate the public and gain strength for the next election, not by improving their own stature but by lowering public opinion of their political opponent. And there is firm evidence that they lack conviction in their "plans" in that every time one comes up for a vote they can't even get a party line concensus. I watched John Murtha attack Bush for 3 months and become the point man for the democratic attack on Bush's handling of Iraq. He was so forceful, and all the democrats were behind him. When the Republicans finally forced a vote on this "plan" he had been ranting about, his own party gave him 6 votes. Of course they faulted the Republicans because the plan "wasn't ready." Huh? And when Kerry introduced his plan for redeployment, the democrats couldn't get a full party vote on that either. They couldn't even come to an agreement among themselves. This doesn't give me any warm fuzzy feelings that they have a very good plan.

Do you really think that dumbya and his cronies would be silent about ANY terrorist plots actually prevented? Hell, they had NOTHING to do with the investigation and arrests in England last week, yet he continues to say “we” were responsible. And let’s not forget about the group in Miami, what a fucking joke!
So, what you’re saying here is that no alternative plan/s should be considered, because all of the details haven’t been discussed, and worked out. Have any details been worked out in the present “plan”? Fuck no! Hell, they don’t even have a plan, no less any details to one. BTW, forcing votes, without discussion, is the neopukes way of doing business. No planning or thought is put into anything they do. They rely solely on false patriotism and fear mongering. “If you don’t support the war, you don’t support the troops.” “If you vote for the Democrats, we’ll get hit again.”
But it’s OK if the neopukes do nothing substantive to protect our borders, as long as they keep giving you those warm and fuzzy feelings.

I have spent time composing my posts so that my position can be made clear to you and you would have an opportunity to respond, not because I feel that my opinions are inferior to yours, but because I was truly interested in what you had to say. Instead you have given me the opportunity to read other people's words from left leaning publications and web sites, while at the same time accusing me of parroting FOX news. You can point me to links from the NY Times and Time magazine all day long, and I, in turn, can point you to the Wall Street Journal. That is not discussion. That is akin to parroting MSNBC vs FOX news. So if the answers to the questions in my previous posts are found in the links you gave me, then I have already heard them, considered them and respectfully disagree with them.

In one thread, I’m accused of posting without providing supporting links, and in another, I’m accused of only posting links and not providing my own plan, or some such shit. It’s like arguing with a teenage girl. Make up your damn mind!
How about you show me where the neopukes have presented ANY real plan to combat terrorism? Go ahead and provide links, as I want to be sure this plan is really theirs, and not what you perceive as a plan, because so far, you’ve not provided any real evidence that your conclusions are valid.

Something else I was taught in my years in Corporate America was how to negotiate with foreign cultures. One of the first things I learned was that I couldn't expect other cultures to think the same way I do. In order to put myself in their shoes I had to understand that I had never even seen their shoes, let alone been in them. They had not been "sensitized" to political correctness and they don't think or feel the same as we do. The American people are making a fatal mistake if they think terrorists will "talk" to us. Can you picture us negotiating with Bin Laden? Can you ever imagine a peaceful outcome to those "negotiations?" Could you ever see him and Hillary shaking hands in the rose garden? (Well, maybe you could.) We are dealing with a different culture that does not hold the same values as us. They don't think the same as us and they don't care about us. We treasure life. They use it as a weapon. This is a culture that has not changed since before Christianity and they have been at war for thousands of years. Do you think you can ever understand them? Do you think they will ever understand us? Perhaps the American people, in their high and mighty place in the world community, will give us all a chance to see this come November. I hope it doesn't happen, but it seems we have indeed forgotten and have moved on to other things.

And do you think dumbya and his cronies have any understanding of the Middle East? He refused to even listen to advisors who were EXPERTS on the Middle East. His “crusade”(his word) in the Middle East, will end as all the others have.
I don’t believe I ever said anything about negotiating with terrorists. I have no idea where you came up with that bullshit, but it’s nothing more than a straw man.
I actually believe we need to hunt them down and arrest or kill the fuckers. I don’t think we will be successful though, as long as we waste valuable Men and resources on a personal project like Iraq.

I certainly hope the American people are beginning to wake up and smell the bullshit. Unfortunately, it will take many, many years to repair the damage done by this group of assholes in charge right now.

[Shelby07]

It gets even more confusing when you realize that there isn't a consensus among democrats. We don't agree - which is why the party is having trouble winning elections lately. Clinton was a moderate. The liberals didn't agree with him and the far right hated him. Lieberman is a conservative dem. Look what happened to him this week. There doesn't seem to be a place in the Democrat party for us "common sense" folks anymore.

I think that the republican party is also moving in that direction. To be honest, it is getting harder and harder to see unity in our politicians no matter what party they belong to.

[Kenyth]

I think that the republican party is also moving in that direction. To be honest, it is getting harder and harder to see unity in our politicians no matter what party they belong to.

The problem is that "moderates" don't really serve the best interest's of the entities with money. The ability to please the power holders, and make the public buy it, is strictly the art of the politician. There are many agendas out there, and a lot of money available to push those agendas. A lot of money changes hands for favors done. It's to be expected.

Show me a modern president who came out of the oval office poorer than he went in, regardless of the economic situation. I'm guessing it will be tough.