Why are we fighting???

[ggiese]

Rohan has brought up a very good point. I, and others, have been posting our thoughts about issues in a thread that was meant for cigar discussion. As a matter of fact, it had to do with a cigar review - unfortunately, the review has become more of banter back and forth about what is right and wrong. So, I'd like to start this thread to discuss what it is that has brought concerns from other members of this board.

Please - do not participate in this thread if you are easily offended. I'm not suggesting that this will go bad, but it seems some are a bit sensitive about honest assessments and answers to their posts. This is not intended to be a flame fest, but instead, to clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings of peoples intentions. Hex, I sincerely hope you don't lock this thread, or allow posts to be deleted. I believe that once everyone understands peoples motivations, this thread will quickly fade.

But until then, let the discussion begin...

I wish to start out with a point that Rohan made about a post I made on the other thread. It goes something like this...

I'm sorry I offended you... But, let me ask you a question. When does what's posted here not become "useless slander"? Would that be when you are burned on a trade? Would it then be right to post about being burned without it being "useless slander"? I think Dave Razz has the right to ask the questions he does. And I believe he is owed answers about his trade. Sorry if it's on this board, but where else should it be? Should it be in private e-mails and PM's? That's already been done and there has been no resolution. And it appears Carlos continues to trade in questionable cigars...

One post warning us of Oblik and the experience you had trading with him would not be useless slander. Bringing 5 or so buddys onto this board to correct his grammar and continue to disrupt his posts is "useless slander"......

Rohan - Then I guess you misunderstood this whole discussion. I'm not Dave's Buddy - I don't know him. I see from his post counts on other boards he is an active participant, and from the sounds of things, seems to be respected. I do know of CoventryCat86, and have had conversations with him. I trust and value his opinions. He is a very knowledgeable BOTL, with a wealth of experience. I don't know who the other two are (totalling 5, including me).

I will tell you that there are individuals I see here, if they chose to, could cause havoc on this board if it were their intent. They would bring WAY more than "5 or so" buddies. I will also tell you that they obviously do not want to do that, because they are respectable people. So your comment about "5 or so buddys" disrupting this board seems without merit to me...

Also, I think you can see from the posts - there are issues aside from the trading - i.e. Mod status on this and another board. I've seen he's "exercised" his mod powers to delete posts on the other board, and now on this board (including mine, and I am offended). That's a VERY dangerous practice. Again - I appeal to you to understand the gravity of that "power" (i.e. Censorship) I don't believe that should be abused and should only to be exercised in extreme circumstances. Deleting posts can change the whole flavor of a conversation - especially if you're trying to hide something.

I'm also trying to understand why I'm the bad guy - you are responding to my posts in this thread, disrupting the conversation. So I guess it's okay for you to do that, but not me? I'm sorry, I'm having a little bit of trouble with grasping that concept.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you haven't been around cigar boards for very long, so I can appreciate the lack of understanding. I'd suggest you check out the boards that have been running for a long time, and have a large membership to see what is successful and not successful. The long running, high membership boards are places where everyone's opinion is valued, even though other members may not agree. They are not over moderated, they don't delete posts or lock threads unless it is an extreme situation. Otherwise the value of deleting posts and locking threads loses impact, which further leads to the loss of credibility for the board.

[CoventryCat86]

Well said George.

Rohan, I think you were WAY out of line accusing ggiese of "bringing 5 or so buddies" here since I signed up BEFORE he did and I can't see ANY link to anyone who has signed up after him as you wrongfully stated. As I mentioned in another post, you comment certainly qualifies as "useless slander" more than anything ggiese or I have posted on this site.

A few others here seem more than eager to jump to conclusions and respond to some of my posts with smart-assed comments before they know all the facts. No big deal since most of them have since realized they were maybe a little out of line and have pulled their horns in and/or sent me a PM with an explanation.

Yep, as anyone can clearly see, I've had experiences with Oblik on another board by watching how he behaves and how he abused and was insulting and rude to quite a few of my friends. In my opinion he should NOT be a moderator of this board. He's too immature, too much of a hot head and is quite lacking in his knowledge of cigars. To be a "moderator" one must be mature and even tempered and display some level of objectivity which I have never seen in Oblik's posts anywhere.

Posts SHOULD NOT BE DELETED especially when Oblik only does it because HE doesn't like the content of the post. This is a gross abuse of his power and he should be warned to stop such nonsense immediately or his moderator status should be taken away.

The more established cigar boards are "self moderated" and the site administrators only step in when the "flaming" or name calling gets way out of hand.

ggiese is right, many of you guys here should check out other cigar boards and see how they are run because I don't recognize most of you from any other on-line cigar BB's.

I would hate to see hex1848's site crash and burn the way LetsTalkCigars did because of poor choices by the moderators and the site owner.

[cockyhoskins]

I agree and disagree. I am a vet of many boards including CA, CW, cigarbid, and now this one. It is true that most boards self moderate because of the member-base that a cigar board tends to get. It tends to be more mature, etc. However, the trash talking here is strictly personal. Maybe hex can create a "smack talk" forum for you guys to go in and bash each other. The problem I have is when it carries into and eventually takes over the substance of the board. At that point, I say delete and continue to delete until the problem goes away.

one good thing to the come from all this is that we have several new members who appear to be veteran BOTLs. Let's hope they all stick around and contribute.

[CoventryCat86]

I agree and disagree. I am a vet of many boards including CA, CW, cigarbid, and now this one. It is true that most boards self moderate because of the member-base that a cigar board tends to get. It tends to be more mature, etc. However, the trash talking here is strictly personal. Maybe hex can create a "smack talk" forum for you guys to go in and bash each other. The problem I have is when it carries into and eventually takes over the substance of the board. At that point, I say delete and continue to delete until the problem goes away.

one good thing to the come from all this is that we have several new members who appear to be veteran BOTLs. Let's hope they all stick around and contribute.

Uhhhh, what you perceive as "trash talking" is relevant criticism of how Oblik handles his job as a moderator and the generally $hitty tone and complete lack of respect he demonstrates when he posts on top of the fact that he appears to have anger management and superiority complex issues.

ggiese and I have taken exception with roham making false accusations and engaging in "slander" as he states it. This is far from "personal" as you stated, it's a matter of poor behavior on their part and it should be discussed in the OPEN in posts on the board rather that "whispered" in PM's as suggested by some.

How is this "taking over the substance of the board"? you completely lost me on that one......

Are you also condoning the deletion of posts? If so you shouldn't be a "moderator" either. I will say it once again:

POSTS SHOULD NOT BE DELETED OR ALTERED BY A MODERATOR

unless they violate the law or some board policy. All of the posts that have been deleted by Oblik haven't even come close to that. He abused his mod privileges and deleted posts because he simply didn't like them.

[ggiese]

I agree and disagree. I am a vet of many boards including CA, CW, cigarbid, and now this one. It is true that most boards self moderate because of the member-base that a cigar board tends to get. It tends to be more mature, etc. However, the trash talking here is strictly personal. Maybe hex can create a "smack talk" forum for you guys to go in and bash each other. The problem I have is when it carries into and eventually takes over the substance of the board. At that point, I say delete and continue to delete until the problem goes away.

one good thing to the come from all this is that we have several new members who appear to be veteran BOTLs. Let's hope they all stick around and contribute.

That shocks me - you seem quite a bit more intelligent than that...

I don't know that any of those boards do as you suggest - create a separate "smack talk" thread, and delete, delete, delete until the problem goes away. I'm aware of one board that decided to do that as a policy - delete, delete, delete - ban, go private, etc - now it's on the verge of going into oblivion...

I think your idea is absolutely insane!!! What the heck will that accomplish, other than causing severe anger and resentment... Do you disagree with the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis when he said , "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants." ? I personally live by and believe we should heed those words

[Roham]

Just for arguments sake.... Moheganson and bkcloud are the fourth and fifth people I was talking about.... The only reason I say they are your buddIES is because you all showed up within a week of each other and started disrupting this board.... All save BKcloud, but he says he knows you too. Alls I know is I use to enjoy this site, and these past few days have not been enjoyable to say the least...

[smokeyJoe]

This is a Internet (Cigar) CHAT ROOM Not some third world country struggle for power !!!
Let's light up and chill out.

P.S. If you don't like the way this site is run, you have the Freedom to go somewhere else...
Start your own if you like.......

[cockyhoskins]

This is a Internet (Cigar) CHAT ROOM Not some third world country struggle for power !!!
Let's light up and chill out.

P.S. If you don't like the way this site is run, you have the Freedom to go somewhere else...
Start your own if you like.......

That's exactly what I meant. There is no reason to air disagreements, etc.

I don't know how much simpler to say this: If you don't like participating on this board, then leave. If you stay, let's talk cigars. If you don't, we will still talk cigars.

These board wars are what's insane. This is hex's site. He shouldn't have to put up with it and if he wants to ban every damn one of us, including me, then do so. He wants to talk cigars; I want to talk cigars. None of us want to talk about this load.

[cockyhoskins]

B]POSTS SHOULD NOT BE DELETED OR ALTERED BY A MODERATOR[/B]

unless they violate the law or some board policy. All of the posts that have been deleted by Oblik haven't even come close to that. He abused his mod privileges and deleted posts because he simply didn't like them.

You speak as though you have a right to post on hex's board. He can delete whatever he wants because it is his board and your privilege to post here.

[cockyhoskins]

I think your idea is absolutely insane!!! What the heck will that accomplish, other than causing severe anger and resentment... Do you disagree with the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis when he said , "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants." ? I personally live by and believe we should heed those words

Quoting Brandeis is a little over the top. It makes me think of Learned Hand when he said:

"The mid-day sun is too much for most eyes; one is dazzled even with its reflection. Be careful that too broad and high an aim does not paralyze your effort and clog your springs of action."

Or better yet, he said: "No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture."

My point is simply: Lighten up and let's talk about cigars.