God Bless America....

[Shelby07]

Not to be picky sarge, but dictionary.com defines immigrant as:


Therefore anyone who chooses to settle in America is an immigrant, whether they do it legally or not, making the term valid.


Other than that I agree with you completely.

Many are migrants. They don't plan on staying here. They just come up for the work and send the money back home to their families.

I wonder if employers would be able to up the wages of the low paying jobs and make them more palatable if they didn't have to pay the higher taxes associated with the costs of illegals.

By the way, looking up the definition of "immigrant" without including the word "illegal" gives an incorrect context.

[basil]

At first glance, I thought the initial post was bias. After reading the others and reflecting on my own experience, I'm understanding the positions here.

I grew up in a largely rural and agricultural community, working on cattle and sheep ranches, a large hog farm, and spent two summers farming on a tractor. Now, we can blame a work force for not being willing to work at cheaper wages, but that wouldn't be the whole story. Those in agri-industries all over this country are under constant assault from an economy where it is increasingly more difficult to earn a living doing what has often been a multi-generational endeavor. This is reflected in various lobbying and famously in Farm Aid (john melloncamp, willie nelson, etc.) So, the farmer and rancher have to widen their profit margins where ever they can. They have been doing so in Texas ever since the area separated itself from Mexico with the Rio Grande. And at least this long throughout the southwest. To save the farm? Yeah, but damn, this is free enterprise and cheap labor equals better profit and this is the American way. Losing the farm is not always the motivator. Not only the people, but also the trend of cheap labor migrated north and to other industry, right along all the paths of free enterprise.

I also grew up working with these illegals. Some had different names for them: wetbacks, often used derrogatorily, but sometimes as a valid term of designation that implied the wage for which the person in question was willing to work; "wetback" was financial term. They called themselves mujou (pronounced moo-how'). I don't know what this word really translates to - there are several other Spanish words for deer. But I know what they meant - they had to stay hidden, in brush and shadows and quietly dissappear at first sign of la shota, their term for the Border Patrol. Crossing the border and traveling crosscountry, they lived much like the deer with which they shared the countryside. These people sometimes spent their entire working careers working for a family, becoming permanent figures in the day-to-day lives of those with whom they lived. The arguments then were similar to those now: illegals were often not financially responsible for themselves. But sometimes they were, more often then than now, I'll bet. They stole jobs from locals. They drained an area of its finances. More recently, they take up our prison and welfare space.

I don't know what the answers are. I know that having grown up here has put me in the habit of seeing these problems as ones that are familiar, a part of life, and borne of and perpetuated by a need for a convenient solution to an insatiable economy.

[Shelby07]

No reply to any specific post, just my opinion...

The borders need to be secured. We have 12 million people in this country that we have no idea who they are or what they are doing here. That's 1 in 25 people. Many are working, sure, and for the most part they will give a good honest day's work for their pay. But many are not. We are at war, not only overseas but right here at home. And securing the borders not only refers to the Mexican border, but also the Canadian border. That is, in fact, where the terrorists entered. No other country in the world allows undocumented entry as easily as we do.

Being a friendly neighbor is all well and good in peacetime. In reality, our current 4.9% unemployment level is almost nothing. So I don't think many Americans are really out of work because of migrant workers. However, I do believe that the tax burden is increased because of them. But either way, the issue in my mind goes back to keeping the bad guys out. When I had the flight school hardly a week went by when the FBI or TSA wasn't coming around looking for people who were perceived as a threat and thought to be in the area. And that was just the local area.

So, they are here. We need to be diligent not only in finding the bad guys, but keeping them from sneaking in in the first place. This isn't about mexican workers, it's about our nation's security.

[thepyrofish]

Many are migrants. They don't plan on staying here. They just come up for the work and send the money back home to their families.

Touche

By the way, looking up the definition of "immigrant" without including the word "illegal" gives an incorrect context.

I disagree. The point in question was whether the term immigrant referred to legals only or illegals as well. Looking up the term illegal immigrant would have answered nothing, as cigarsarge was contending that it wasn't a proper term at all.

[Shelby07]

Touche



I disagree. The point in question was whether the term immigrant referred to legals only or illegals as well. Looking up the term illegal immigrant would have answered nothing, as cigarsarge was contending that it wasn't a proper term at all.

Technically you are correct. However, our language constantly evolves, and whether or not it is in the dictionary, the term "illegal immigrant" has worked its way into our language and our culture. The two word phrase is conventionally understood to mean undocumented foreign nationals who have circumvented the required process of entering our country, and very different than just the word "immigrant."

[Bkcloud114]

I have to agree with Sarge on this one also, probably goes to my past experiences. In NYC and the surrounding Counties (I'm sure it is in other places also) we have "day laborers". They stand on corners and wait for contractors to pick them up for different types of manual labor. The problem is when they are not picked up for jobs. They then stand on the corners all day and drink. With the drinking comes other things : urinating, bothering the women and beer muscles. This is when "day laborers" become a nuisance to the community. So what does the community do, they complain to the local Police Dept. So the local PD then enforces quality of life issues, ex. drinking, urinating... etc. Also enforcing the issue of loitering and blocking the sidewalks and roadways (when trucks stop to pick them up).... The next thing you know, some law firm (who is looking for some free advertising), decides that we are violating the rights of these individuals and that they now represent any Mexican day laborer. After that comes the local spanish TV Station, video taping everything to make sure nobodies rights are violated. Here is another thing to take into consideration, since they are being hired illegally they have no medical coverage or Workman's Compensation Insurance. If they are hurt on the job site, and alot are because they are not properly trained in the different trades that they do, they usually are just dropped off at the local hospital.... so who do you think pays that bill.

Keep in mind that it is not only the "illegal" immigrants who are doing things illegally or immorally. It is aloso every person who hires them. They do not have to pay for Insurance, no Unions to contend with, no contract negotiations. They also do not pay most of them a fair wage.

I also agree with Shelby.... they do not put any money back into the economy.... they pool their money in order to rent apartments and send the rest home.

[thepyrofish]

Technically you are correct. However, our language constantly evolves, and whether or not it is in the dictionary, the term "illegal immigrant" has worked its way into our language and our culture. The two word phrase is conventionally understood to mean undocumented foreign nationals who have circumvented the required process of entering our country, and very different than just the word "immigrant."

I think we're agreeing without realising it.
I only brought up the definition of the word immigrant alone to defend the fact that illegal immigrant is a viable term.
And on friday, for the first time since my move to VA, I experienced nuisance day-workers. I'm a security technician and I often go back and forth to my car for tools/equipment/whatever during a job. I had two guys keep asking me if I wanted help, saying they work cheap, blah blah blah. They were pretty persistant. Eventually they got sick of me and left. I saw them in the alley when I finished up, I think they were tweaking.

[cigar no baka]

The US economy does not "Need" migrant workers. Big business does. They reap the benefits of having cheap labor who they don't have to provide any benefits. Illegals have actually been suppressing wages in those jobs that "Americans simply won't do" (God, I'm sick of hearing that!).

It's not that Americans won't do them, they just won't do them for a pittance. Our economy would get along fine with illegals, we'd just have more Americans employed and paying their own way, wages would rise and so would prices but I'm willing to do that as we would save money in many other ways, ie. the COSTS of illegal immigration - healthcare,education, etc.

And I am in agreement with those that say that most illegals send a lot of money home, so they are not exactly spending all their money here.

[SmokinDVM]

The elite class in Mexico tell the poor that they'll be heros to their people if they come to America and send money back, and the poor slobs eat it up.

Big business, including politicians, in both Countries want to keep things just like they are.

[SuperChuck]

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.