God Bless America....

[SmokinDVM]

The elite class in Mexico tell the poor that they'll be heros to their people if they come to America and send money back, and the poor slobs eat it up.

Big business, including politicians, in both Countries want to keep things just like they are.

[SuperChuck]

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.

[cigar no baka]

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.

It's not whining, it's taking control over our national sovereignty once again.

I could give a flying fuck less if peaches cost $2 each. That's a price I'm willing to pay. Our national sovereignty is NOT for sale.

[SuperChuck]

I could give a flying fuck less if peaches cost $2 each. That's a price I'm willing to pay. Our national sovereignty is NOT for sale.

That's pretty easy to say when peaches cost 50c, less so when they're $2.

Look at the price of gasoline. It's gone up less than a dollar, yet everyone's acting like its the first sign of the Apocalypse.

Look at our "dependence on foreign oil". There are literally dozens of ways to ACTUALLY reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Renewable wind energy would dramatically reduce our dependence on foreign oil for electricity production, but it costs about 25% more, so no one will switch.

Adding an E85 option at the gas pump would reduce our reliance on foreign oil for automobiles by 75%, but it costs 20c per gallon more, so no one will carry it.

[Shelby07]

You know, it's kind of funny...

Currently Americans are whining about 2 things: the price of gasoline and illegal immigration.

Does it ever occur to anyone that the 50c peach you're eating was picked by Pedro for $3/hour?
If Philip takes over that job (and Philip's union believes he should get no less than $10/hour to pick peaches), that peach is going to cost $2.

Rant on:

Good Lord! Gasoline and peaches can't be considered equal. Everything in our economy revolves around petroleum. Look around your house and see how many items you can find that haven't been manufactured or transported by a machine powered by petroleum. You don't need peaches to manufacture and transport goods, nor do you need peaches to heat your house, get to work, make a living or defend the country. We don't have a choice with oil. We certainly have one with peaches. The free enterprise system is based on supply and demand. If peaches go up to $2 each, I will stop buying them. I also have the option of putting a peach tree in my back yard or picking some up at the farmer's market. If we don't buy peaches because they are too costly, demand goes down, supply goes up, and prices come down.

You could make a case that cheap labor is adding to the problem. If cheap labor goes away, technology will produce another method to harvest crops. As long as we have cheap labor, there is no incentive to do so.

So if I complain about the price of oil, it is because it touches everything we do, have or need. It is much further reaching than simply what it costs to fill your car. We can't as a country be dependent on a vital part of our economy from a hostile part of the world. We need to look within. We need to focus on alternative energy sources, and until that technology comes about, we need to drill for and refine more oil in areas that are not controlled by OPEC. With China and India increasing the demand for oil, the price is skyrocketing. Believe it or not, there is still plenty of oil to go around. Oil can still be bought for 80 cents a gallon in many parts of the middle east.

As for illegal immigrants, the issue to me is about securing our borders, not cheap labor or anti-sematism. The United States has always welcomed immigrants entering this country legally. But we need to know who comes in, when. where and why. We are, after all, at war. And no matter what your position is on Iraq or Afghanistan, the problem of terrorism will not go away if we suddenly bring our troops home. In my opinion, it would get worse. So I would like to see our borders secured beforehand.

By the way, the cost of harvesting any crop is a very small percentage of the overall cost of producing it. Bad weather will have more of an effect on the price of produce than higher wages for harvesting it.

Comparing the consequences of gasoline prices to peach prices is totally rediculous.

Rant off

[SuperChuck]

Good Lord! Gasoline and peaches can't be considered equal. Everything in our economy revolves around petroleum. ... If peaches go up to $2 each, I will stop buying them.

I was using peaches as a silly example for ALL foodstuffs. If peaches go up to $2 each, you can switch to apples. However, if the price of all crops harvested by illegal workers tripled, your food bill will triple.

As for illegal immigrants, the issue to me is about securing our borders, not cheap labor or anti-sematism. The United States has always welcomed immigrants entering this country legally. But we need to know who comes in, when. where and why. We are, after all, at war. And no matter what your position is on Iraq or Afghanistan, the problem of terrorism will not go away if we suddenly bring our troops home. In my opinion, it would get worse. So I would like to see our borders secured beforehand.

Um, the terrorists in question came into the country legally through Canada. I believe everyone involved (stateside) in the 9/11 attack was here on an expired student visa. They were not IN the country legally, but they arrived here legally and our own INS didn't bother to check if they left.

[Shelby07]

I was using peaches as a silly example for ALL foodstuffs. If peaches go up to $2 each, you can switch to apples. However, if the price of all crops harvested by illegal workers tripled, your food bill will triple.


Um, the terrorists in question came into the country legally through Canada. I believe everyone involved (stateside) in the 9/11 attack was here on an expired student visa. They were not IN the country legally, but they arrived here legally and our own INS didn't bother to check if they left.

Your theory is flawed. Your supposition stated that peaches were an example for ALL foodstuffs, then you offered an alternative to peaches that wouldn't be affected. Only items harvested by those getting paid $3/hr will be affected. That is a very small percentage of our overall food bill. And as I said before, the cost of harvesting is a small part of the overall cost of goods, so the percentage for these few items will not be 300%. It would be much less. Milk, beef, poultry, wheat, legumes, etc., would not be affected at all since they are either not harvested or they are harvested using methods that don't require field laborers. Another problem with your theory is that it implies that ALL field workers are getting $3/hr and that tightening up our immigration laws would resuld in a $10/hr wage. There is no proof of this. Even if it were to be true, the overall cost to our food bill would be minimal since it would only affect a small percentage of our food purchases. Those who threaten a 300% increase in our overall food bills are spouting scare tactics that you have apparantly bought into.

And, yes, the terrorists came in legally because our borders were/are wide open. Our processes need to change, and that include ALL methods of entry into the country. Doing nothing will not help the situation. It sounds as if you understand this. So what would you suggest?

[SuperChuck]

Only items harvested by those getting paid $3/hr will be affected. That is a very small percentage of our overall food bill.

You'd probably be surprised what percentage this is. Even the few farms up here in New England mostly hire immigrants (I don't know what percentage is legal or illegal) because they'll work for next to nothing.

And, yes, the terrorists came in legally because our borders were/are wide open. Our processes need to change, and that include ALL methods of entry into the country. Doing nothing will not help the situation. It sounds as if you understand this. So what would you suggest?

There are a lot of things that can be done, but we're not concerned with actual solutions, we're concerned with big displays.

Airport security is a good example.

I have to take my shoes off at the airport because some nutjob tried to blow up a plane with a "shoe bomb". Let's review. This guy was actually turned down by al Qaeda. If he was able to detonate it, the shoe contained almost enough explosive to burn his hand. Maybe.

When I was flying a lot, they used to have 3 questions they'd askat check-in. Yes-No-No. I don't even remember the questions, those are the answers.

All checked luggage is being x-rayed, which I agree is a good thing, but can't we do that in a back room?

When I was flying out of Amsterdam one time, they did something I thought was a great idea. They basically interrogated me before letting me on the plane. They didn't actually care what the answers were, they just wanted me to slip.

But it's all about show. Taking your shoes off gives a PERCEPTION of security. Heavily armed guards give the PERCEPTION of security.

Similarly, sending thousands of troops sounds really good, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Pedro is not a terrorist. And, really, Pedro is going to come over, anyway.

"Protecting the borders" may even be hurting the fight on terror a little. As of last week, we kind of look the other way with illegal immigration. As a result, the wetbacks have been helping protect that border from suspicious people. They didn't want us to start cracking down. We'll lose that non-civilian police force now.

Those Canucks, on the other hand, they let anyone through their borders...

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God damn, that's a lot of words. :)

[Shelby07]

You'd probably be surprised what percentage this is. Even the few farms up here in New England mostly hire immigrants (I don't know what percentage is legal or illegal) because they'll work for next to nothing.


There are a lot of things that can be done, but we're not concerned with actual solutions, we're concerned with big displays.

Airport security is a good example.

I have to take my shoes off at the airport because some nutjob tried to blow up a plane with a "shoe bomb". Let's review. This guy was actually turned down by al Qaeda. If he was able to detonate it, the shoe contained almost enough explosive to burn his hand. Maybe.

When I was flying a lot, they used to have 3 questions they'd askat check-in. Yes-No-No. I don't even remember the questions, those are the answers.

All checked luggage is being x-rayed, which I agree is a good thing, but can't we do that in a back room?

When I was flying out of Amsterdam one time, they did something I thought was a great idea. They basically interrogated me before letting me on the plane. They didn't actually care what the answers were, they just wanted me to slip.

But it's all about show. Taking your shoes off gives a PERCEPTION of security. Heavily armed guards give the PERCEPTION of security.

Similarly, sending thousands of troops sounds really good, but it doesn't accomplish anything. Pedro is not a terrorist. And, really, Pedro is going to come over, anyway.

"Protecting the borders" may even be hurting the fight on terror a little. As of last week, we kind of look the other way with illegal immigration. As a result, the wetbacks have been helping protect that border from suspicious people. They didn't want us to start cracking down. We'll lose that non-civilian police force now.

Those Canucks, on the other hand, they let anyone through their borders...

------

God damn, that's a lot of words. :)

Well, you started up by saying that people were complaining, I ranted a bit because it was a hot button (nothing personal, many hold your views.) We discussed some opinions and I asked you what you suggested. Instead of offering opinions on solutions, you are back to complaining about the stupidity of our efforts. So, what do you suggest? Interrogation on aircraft? With all due respect, that hardly touches on the issue you first introduced. Honestly, I have heard lots of complaining from those who want to keep the borders open, but no suggestions other than leaving things as they are or granting amnesty to those who have broken our laws. I am assuming that we agree we have a problem (if that's a wrong assumption let me know.) I am curious as to what your opinion on a solution would be. I'm not sure how beefing up airport security would affect illegals crossing either one of our borders.

By the way, there is a big difference between securing our borders and closing them. And actually, perception is a big part of achieving any goal.

Anybody else want to jump in???