Continued Discussion with cls515

[cls515]

#1. The fact that it was written long after the estimated period of the death of the main character, mostly by people who were not even alive during that time.
#2. The “chapters” often have many different versions. Which ones were used depended solely on which fit best with the beliefs of the assemblers.
#3. While many different physical locales and landmarks etc. were used throughout, no doubt to add some semblance of credibility, none of the supernatural claims can be supported by any proof.

So, what this all adds up to is a collection of fictional stories.

Thanks for replying. Really I'm not attacking you, I am curious, as I do believe the Bible is not fictional. If it is true, and on the premise believers go to Heaven and non-believers don't, you would risk eternal damnation based on the above three statements, which don't even prove the Bible is fake?

[SmokinDVM]

Thanks for replying. Really I'm not attacking you, I am curious, as I do believe the Bible is not fictional. If it is true, and on the premise believers go to Heaven and non-believers don't, you would risk eternal damnation based on the above three statements, which don't even prove the Bible is fake?

Friendly discussion.

I feel no such risk. I would welcome some kind of verifiable, by such I mean repeatable non-supernatural, evidence that a god, or a son of a god, exists.

As far as whether the bible is fictional (I did not say "fake") or not, I try to follow a logical path. The bible is full of magical/supernatural tales. Water into wine, rising from the dead, etc., etc., etc. None of the things described therein can be repeated, verified, corroborated, or scientifically supported in any way. This leaves it as a work of fiction.

[cls515]

Friendly discussion.

I feel no such risk. I would welcome some kind of verifiable, by such I mean repeatable non-supernatural, evidence that a god, or a son of a god, exists.

As far as whether the bible is fictional (I did not say "fake") or not, I try to follow a logical path. The bible is full of magical/supernatural tales. Water into wine, rising from the dead, etc., etc., etc. None of the things described therein can be repeated, verified, corroborated, or scientifically supported in any way. This leaves it as a work of fiction.

The above were not done by anything worldly, which is why people refer to the works as miracles. If there is a God, then He is omnicient and omnipotent. If there is not a God, then I would agree the Bible is fiction. However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God. And therefore, I do not doubt any of the above works because God can do anything.

[chefchris]

The above were not done by anything worldly, which is why people refer to the works as miracles. If there is a God, then He is omnicient. If there is not a God, then I would agree the Bible is fiction. However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God. And therefore, I do not doubt any of the above works because God can do anything.

come on, brother!

[Newfie]

snip... However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God....snip

With all due resect, we are all entitled to our beliefs.

I believe in God as well, however, I also believe I'll be at work tomorrow. Will I?? I hope so.

You say you KNOW there's a God. How do you know that?? Because of what you were told by parents, teachers, preachers of one denomination or another?? Or because of something you can see, can touch, or can hold in your hand.

Personally, like I said, I do believe there's a God but I don't follow my religion (Roman Catholic) because:

• I'm of Irish blood, look what Religion had done over there. (Does that say enough??]
• When my grandmother first met my now wife of 27 years (girlfriend then) she whispered loud enough for everyone to hear "Is she a Catholic?". Who gives a rat's shit what religion she is??
• When my Father in Law passed away in a small community in Newfoundland, the local priest wouldn't come and bury him because of a fued with some of the towns-people. An Anglican Minister performed the service.

These are just some of the reasons I don't follow my Religion. There are plenty more.

[SmokinDVM]

The above were not done by anything worldly, which is why people refer to the works as miracles. If there is a God, then He is omnicient and omnipotent. If there is not a God, then I would agree the Bible is fiction. However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God. And therefore, I do not doubt any of the above works because God can do anything.

How do you know there is a god? Is it possible for you to provide proof that it exists? If you cannot provide proof, then it isn't knowledge of existence, but rather belief of existence, which would leave it in the realm of fiction.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus

Do you also believe in buddah, zeus, thor etc., etc.? If not, then why?

[cls515]

How do you know there is a god? Is it possible for you to provide proof that it exists? If you cannot provide proof, then it isn't knowledge of existence, but rather belief of existence, which would leave it in the realm of fiction.




Do you also believe in buddah, zeus, thor etc., etc.? If not, then why?

Christianity is based on following Christ and having a relationship with Him. I believe in Jesus Christ and believe in God. I don't think there is any scientific proof crediting or discrediting Christianity. As posted earlier it is based on faith. It will never be based on pushing your ideas on another, after all, that person being pushed on will not act out of faith but rather coercion.

There are many reasons why I know there is a God, many personal, many not so personal. The complexity of life is a miracle in itself, and I believe without a doubt would not be possible without the hand of God.

I questioned the existence of God. I was going through a hard time and wondered how could there be a god when there is so much evil in the world. I think you can have a God, who is purely good, for lack of better comprehension of the word, and I think God has the power to rid the world of evil. If you believe in God and have studied somewhat, you will find that in the beginning there was only God and good, but that one of his angels became prideful and envious.

I believe there is one god, and I call him God.

[SmokinDVM]

Christianity is based on following Christ and having a relationship with Him. I believe in Jesus Christ and believe in God. I don't think there is any scientific proof crediting or discrediting Christianity. As posted earlier it is based on faith. It will never be based on pushing your ideas on another, after all, that person being pushed on will not act out of faith but rather coercion.

There is no scientific proof of a god, even after thousands of years. The proof against such a supernatural being is exactly that lack of proof.
You may not believe in forcing your beliefs on others, but christianity, and religions in general, have a long history of doing just that, and continue to practice such.

There are many reasons why I know there is a God, many personal, many not so personal. The complexity of life is a miracle in itself, and I believe without a doubt would not be possible without the hand of God.

The complexity of life has been explained time and again by natural scientific means. IMO, there is no need to invoke the supernatural just to be awed and inspired by that complexity.

I questioned the existence of God. I was going through a hard time and wondered how could there be a god when there is so much evil in the world. I think you can have a God, who is purely good, for lack of better comprehension of the word, and I think God has the power to rid the world of evil. If you believe in God and have studied somewhat, you will find that in the beginning there was only God and good, but that one of his angels became prideful and envious.

I believe there is one god, and I call him God.

Your beliefs are well and good for you, but they are strictly beliefs, without any basis in fact. And while repeating your beliefs and ideas taught to you by your religious books may make you feel better about your place in life, it doesn't constitute proof of a god.

[cls515]

There is no scientific proof of a god, even after thousands of years. The proof against such a supernatural being is exactly that lack of proof.
You may not believe in forcing your beliefs on others, but christianity, and religions in general, have a long history of doing just that, and continue to practice such.

If your beliefs are based on faith, then proof of the existence regarding that religion nullifies your beliefs. From a scientific standpoint, lack of proof does not prove anything. Life has evolved for billions of years. Billions. Yet we don't have any proof how it started, we have theories. Does this lack of proof prove that our existence does not exist? Most certainly not.

The complexity of life has been explained time and again by natural scientific means. IMO, there is no need to invoke the supernatural just to be awed and inspired by that complexity.

I beg to differ. A protein is a fundamental element necessary for us to survive. I assume you are a DVM and have a scientific background, maybe slightly outdated ( sorry). We only know the 3-D structure of very very few proteins. Many of the fundamental pathways involving proteins are still not understood. We just don't know. Is it impossible for us to not advance our knowledge? Of course not. Scientific process governs the complexity, no doubt about it. Natural process, such as like charges repelling one another, explain how molecules interact with each other. But it is so complex. I could go on and on about the complexity and really just scratch the surface for you. It is amazing. It is so complex I don't think it could happen without God's hand.

Your beliefs are well and good for you, but they are strictly beliefs, without any basis in fact. And while repeating your beliefs and ideas taught to you by your religious books may make you feel better about your place in life, it doesn't constitute proof of a god.

I started believing in God before I read the Bible.

[cls515]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus

I have wondered why God lets evil be. I don't know God's plan but I know He has one. I can't comprehend His plan. I'm only human. But I think that not all bad things are bad. For instance, when something bad happens to me, I turn to God.

I think God can prevent evil. There is no evil in Heaven. There is evil on earth. Can He change that? I think so. Then why doesn't God? I don't know why He hasn't yet.

[WhiteWidow]

I have wondered why God lets evil be.

Read the last story in Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" and that will be explained.

[cigar no baka]

This is a pointless circular discussion. If you are a die-hard atheist, nothing is going to change your mind. If you are religious, nothing is going to change your mind. If you are somewhere inbetween, maybe something will change your mind. But this discussion is simply pointless as both sides see their side as being true, with no hope of ever agreeing with the other.

I personally have faith. I always have and I hope I always will. I have never tried to convince an atheist as there is no point. And if an atheist tries to argue with me, I tell them my faith is firm, obviously so is theirs (atheism is a faith, actually) so why argue? It's pointless.

[SmokinDVM]

I have wondered why God lets evil be. I don't know God's plan but I know He has one. I can't comprehend His plan. I'm only human. But I think that not all bad things are bad. For instance, when something bad happens to me, I turn to God.

I think God can prevent evil. There is no evil in Heaven. There is evil on earth. Can He change that? I think so. Then why doesn't God? I don't know why He hasn't yet.

This is the type of thinking that I think is dangerous. Always thinking that everything is "gods will", or "I'm only human", gives too many people an excuse for not trying to change things.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

[cls515]

This is the type of thinking that I think is dangerous. Always thinking that everything is "gods will", or "I'm only human", gives too many people an excuse for not trying to change things.

What I said was God has a plan. And that I don't know it because, I'm not God. I don't know if everything is "God's will". My best friend's brother died of a brain aneurysm while he was in class at the local high school. Was it God's will he died like that? I don't know. Is he in a better place, yeah, he is.