Continued Discussion with cls515

**SmokinDVM** · 11-06-2006, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by cls515

I would not mind discussing this topic in another forum. I understand what a fictional story is. But, I'm asking you, what is your basis for stating that the New Testament is fictional?

#1. The fact that it was written long after the estimated period of the death of the main character, mostly by people who were not even alive during that time.
#2. The “chapters” often have many different versions. Which ones were used depended solely on which fit best with the beliefs of the assemblers.
#3. While many different physical locales and landmarks etc. were used throughout, no doubt to add some semblance of credibility, none of the supernatural claims can be supported by any proof.

So, what this all adds up to is a collection of fictional stories.

**Devil Doc** · 11-06-2006, 07:24 AM

That's why they call it Faith.

Doc.

**cls515** · 11-06-2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by SmokinDVM

#1. The fact that it was written long after the estimated period of the death of the main character, mostly by people who were not even alive during that time.
#2. The “chapters” often have many different versions. Which ones were used depended solely on which fit best with the beliefs of the assemblers.
#3. While many different physical locales and landmarks etc. were used throughout, no doubt to add some semblance of credibility, none of the supernatural claims can be supported by any proof.

So, what this all adds up to is a collection of fictional stories.

Thanks for replying. Really I'm not attacking you, I am curious, as I do believe the Bible is not fictional. If it is true, and on the premise believers go to Heaven and non-believers don't, you would risk eternal damnation based on the above three statements, which don't even prove the Bible is fake?

**SmokinDVM** · 11-06-2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Devil Doc

That's why they call it Faith.

Doc.

As long as you realize that "faith" constitutes belief without any verifiable proof.

**nhcigarfan** · 11-06-2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Devil Doc

That's why they call it Faith.

Doc.

Do draft dodgers have reunions? And if so what do they talk about?
Doc

The time they spent in Canada or how Daddy got them out of it.

**SmokinDVM** · 11-06-2006, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by cls515

Thanks for replying. Really I'm not attacking you, I am curious, as I do believe the Bible is not fictional. If it is true, and on the premise believers go to Heaven and non-believers don't, you would risk eternal damnation based on the above three statements, which don't even prove the Bible is fake?

Friendly discussion.

I feel no such risk. I would welcome some kind of verifiable, by such I mean repeatable non-supernatural, evidence that a god, or a son of a god, exists.

As far as whether the bible is fictional (I did not say "fake") or not, I try to follow a logical path. The bible is full of magical/supernatural tales. Water into wine, rising from the dead, etc., etc., etc. None of the things described therein can be repeated, verified, corroborated, or scientifically supported in any way. This leaves it as a work of fiction.

**cls515** · 11-06-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by SmokinDVM

Friendly discussion.

I feel no such risk. I would welcome some kind of verifiable, by such I mean repeatable non-supernatural, evidence that a god, or a son of a god, exists.

As far as whether the bible is fictional (I did not say "fake") or not, I try to follow a logical path. The bible is full of magical/supernatural tales. Water into wine, rising from the dead, etc., etc., etc. None of the things described therein can be repeated, verified, corroborated, or scientifically supported in any way. This leaves it as a work of fiction.

The above were not done by anything worldly, which is why people refer to the works as miracles. If there is a God, then He is omnicient and omnipotent. If there is not a God, then I would agree the Bible is fiction. However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God. And therefore, I do not doubt any of the above works because God can do anything.

**cls515** · 11-06-2006, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by SmokinDVM

#1. The fact that it was written long after the estimated period of the death of the main character, mostly by people who were not even alive during that time.
#2. The “chapters” often have many different versions. Which ones were used depended solely on which fit best with the beliefs of the assemblers.
#3. While many different physical locales and landmarks etc. were used throughout, no doubt to add some semblance of credibility, none of the supernatural claims can be supported by any proof.

So, what this all adds up to is a collection of fictional stories.

1. The authors of the different chapters lived in a time of persecution. One of the authors is named Paul, who changed his name from Saul. Maybe you have heard of him? Why would someone, or people, write a fictional story and risk death? What is that purpose? That fiction is worth their life?
2. I can only recall one "chapter" that is different from the rest, which accounts for the death of Jesus Christ. Say for instance, three people say a guy walks into a store with yellow pants, and a fourth guy says the guy walked into a store with blue pants. Know what? The guy walked into the store.
3. See above post.

**chefchris** · 11-06-2006, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by cls515

The above were not done by anything worldly, which is why people refer to the works as miracles. If there is a God, then He is omnicient. If there is not a God, then I would agree the Bible is fiction. However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God. And therefore, I do not doubt any of the above works because God can do anything.

come on, brother!

**heftysmokes** · 11-06-2006, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by cls515

Why would someone, or people, write a fictional story and risk death? What is that purpose? That fiction is worth their life?

I'm not getting into this debate. However as to the above quote, that happens all the time, even today. It's called art.
Taken from Wikipedia
The novel (Satanic Verses) caused much controversy upon publication in 1988, as many Muslims considered that it contained blasphemous references. India was the first country to ban the book. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the Supreme Leader of Iran, a Shi'a Muslim scholar, issued a fatwa that called for the death of Rushdie and claimed that it was the duty of every Muslim to obey.

And please, please, please, do not interpret this post as saying I equate the Bible to Satanic Verses in any way other than the author(s) faced persecution and risked death.

**Newfie** · 11-06-2006, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by cls515

snip... However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God....snip

With all due resect, we are all entitled to our beliefs.

I believe in God as well, however, I also believe I'll be at work tomorrow. Will I?? I hope so.

You say you KNOW there's a God. How do you know that?? Because of what you were told by parents, teachers, preachers of one denomination or another?? Or because of something you can see, can touch, or can hold in your hand.

Personally, like I said, I do believe there's a God but I don't follow my religion (Roman Catholic) because:

I'm of Irish blood, look what Religion had done over there. (Does that say enough??]
When my grandmother first met my now wife of 27 years (girlfriend then) she whispered loud enough for everyone to hear "Is she a Catholic?". Who gives a rat's shit what religion she is??
When my Father in Law passed away in a small community in Newfoundland, the local priest wouldn't come and bury him because of a fued with some of the towns-people. An Anglican Minister performed the service.

These are just some of the reasons I don't follow my Religion. There are plenty more.

**SmokinDVM** · 11-06-2006, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by cls515

The above were not done by anything worldly, which is why people refer to the works as miracles. If there is a God, then He is omnicient and omnipotent. If there is not a God, then I would agree the Bible is fiction. However, one of the few things I do know, is that there is a God. And therefore, I do not doubt any of the above works because God can do anything.

How do you know there is a god? Is it possible for you to provide proof that it exists? If you cannot provide proof, then it isn't knowledge of existence, but rather belief of existence, which would leave it in the realm of fiction.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus

Do you also believe in buddah, zeus, thor etc., etc.? If not, then why?

**cls515** · 11-06-2006, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by SmokinDVM

How do you know there is a god? Is it possible for you to provide proof that it exists? If you cannot provide proof, then it isn't knowledge of existence, but rather belief of existence, which would leave it in the realm of fiction.

Do you also believe in buddah, zeus, thor etc., etc.? If not, then why?

Christianity is based on following Christ and having a relationship with Him. I believe in Jesus Christ and believe in God. I don't think there is any scientific proof crediting or discrediting Christianity. As posted earlier it is based on faith. It will never be based on pushing your ideas on another, after all, that person being pushed on will not act out of faith but rather coercion.

There are many reasons why I know there is a God, many personal, many not so personal. The complexity of life is a miracle in itself, and I believe without a doubt would not be possible without the hand of God.

I questioned the existence of God. I was going through a hard time and wondered how could there be a god when there is so much evil in the world. I think you can have a God, who is purely good, for lack of better comprehension of the word, and I think God has the power to rid the world of evil. If you believe in God and have studied somewhat, you will find that in the beginning there was only God and good, but that one of his angels became prideful and envious.

I believe there is one god, and I call him God.

**cls515** · 11-06-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by SmokinDVM

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus

I have wondered why God lets evil be. I don't know God's plan but I know He has one. I can't comprehend His plan. I'm only human. But I think that not all bad things are bad. For instance, when something bad happens to me, I turn to God.

I think God can prevent evil. There is no evil in Heaven. There is evil on earth. Can He change that? I think so. Then why doesn't God? I don't know why He hasn't yet.

**WhiteWidow** · 11-06-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by cls515

I have wondered why God lets evil be.

Read the last story in Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" and that will be explained.

**cigar no baka** · 11-06-2006, 05:48 PM

This is a pointless circular discussion. If you are a die-hard atheist, nothing is going to change your mind. If you are religious, nothing is going to change your mind. If you are somewhere inbetween, maybe something will change your mind. But this discussion is simply pointless as both sides see their side as being true, with no hope of ever agreeing with the other.

I personally have faith. I always have and I hope I always will. I have never tried to convince an atheist as there is no point. And if an atheist tries to argue with me, I tell them my faith is firm, obviously so is theirs (atheism is a faith, actually) so why argue? It's pointless.

bigpoppapuff · 11-06-2006, 06:33 PM

personally have faith. I always have and I hope I always will. I have never tried to convince an atheist as there is no point. And if an atheist tries to argue with me, I tell them my faith is firm, obviously so is theirs (atheism is a faith, actually) so why argue? It's pointless.

i totally agree with this (surprised,baka???).....pretty much what i stated on another thread...if yours works for you,cool....if i believe mine works for me,cool.....don't try to sell me yours...i'll keep mine to myself.....

**heftysmokes** · 11-06-2006, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by cigar no baka

This is a pointless circular discussion. If you are a die-hard atheist, nothing is going to change your mind. If you are religious, nothing is going to change your mind. If you are somewhere inbetween, maybe something will change your mind. But this discussion is simply pointless as both sides see their side as being true, with no hope of ever agreeing with the other.

Wow, you could change the words "atheist" and "religious" with "Democrat" and "Republican" and pretty much have the same deal.

At least with this thread, no one is name-calling

**cigar no baka** · 11-06-2006, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by heftysmokes

Wow, you could change the words "atheist" and "religious" with "Democrat" and "Republican" and pretty much have the same deal.

At least with this thread, no one is name-calling

Excellent point. Pointless arguing between those diametrically opposed is pointless.

**ScoopKW** · 11-06-2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by cigar no baka

Excellent point. Pointless arguing between those diametrically opposed is pointless.

So is baiting -- I don't use an avatar of a two-faced Christ in order to rile up my opponents in the religion debate, Baka.

Nor do I use an avatar of W with a spear through his head. Although I think it would be an improvement.

(Note to Dept. of Homeland Security investigators: The previous two sentences are a joke. I don't want to see W with a spear through his head. Twenty-five years from now, I want to read that W died in federal prison -- in total disgrace.)