Middle east outcome

[cigar no baka]

Sorry, Barry - but I disagree with just about everything you're saying concerning "issues" in the Middle East. Our current situation has much more to do with what has been done in the PAST (BEFORE Bush) and more to do with the perceptions the muslim world has concerning our meddling in their affairs. They use our association with Israel as the means to prove their point, but they actually despise us on our own merits.

Unfortunately, we've done a fantastic job of feed those flames ourselves. Back in the 50's, 60's, etc. (when Bush was frolicking around in his diapers) we were about setting up puppet governments in many of those countries. We backed them, we funded them, we supported them. Democrats and Republicans equally!!! Whether it was to stop the spread of communism, or to satisfy our growing need for oil, good or bad (at the time) that's what we did. We even backed, supplied and supported Sadam Hussein at one point.

Well - we're paying the price now. So what do you suggest we do? Before you say we should engage in a dialogue with these people - understand - we would have to break all ties with Israel in order to even begin a discussion. And then remove all of our forces from ALL middle eastern countries - allow all of the countries autonomy - let them do as they please... (i.e. develop nuclear weapons, set up theocratic states like the Taliban did in Afghanistan, etc....).

Yep - let's be isolationist in ideology - let's pull all of our factories, businesses and other enterprises out of all of those countries. That's what the terrorists want...

Let's close the borders to travel to those regions I mean, after all, we don't want to piss off the locals by sharing western customs with them (i.e. - woman allowed to walk around with face, hair and legs exposed). That's what the terrorists want...

And after all of that, if you're so naive as to believe that's what it's going to take to gain peace in the middle east - brother, you have your head buried in the sand up to your armpits... The radical muslims want to establish a muslim empire - one that is capable of reaching out and smacking down those that offend them - and that's what you'd be allowing them to do...

Our biggest enemy is our own greed. But we don't view it that way. We see it as the fruits of our hard work. You cannot possibly convince me you are willing to give up all the things the American society has afforded for you - nice cars, houses, air conditioning, plenty of food, nice clothes, EDUCATION, free press, free thinking, free expression of ideas, vacations, sweet smelling perfume/cologne, Nike/Adidas/FUBU tennis shoes, Ray Ban/Maui Jim/Oakley sunglasses, fine cigars, fine wines/scotch/booze, etc., etc., etc. And unless and until you do - and you are on equal footing with these nutballs - we're going to suffer their wrath. You see they - along with a lot of other nutballs in the world - honestly believe you have those things because you exploited them, plundered them, raped them, robbed them, etc. of those things. They honestly believe they will live their paltry existence until such time they are in heaven - with 27 virgins and all of the things we've had all of our life. We are the devil - they are the righteous...

So let's go ahead debate whether those bastard Republican's, and their "big business" agenda, is better/worse than the righteous Democrat's and their "social" agenda (funded by big business) iin curing the world's ills...

Until then - we have no choice but to battle them on their soil - a place where they are coming in droves to confront our well trained/well equipped army. You know - WAR...

Or - I suppose we could always pull our troops and set them up around our country and wait from them to fly more planes into our buildings - or car bomb population centers - or... Well, you know... We are a soft target inside our own borders, after all...

George, save your breath, Barry is not here to discuss this issue, just to spread his anger and hatred towards Republicans, and anyone who disagrees with him.

[SmokinDVM]

Idiots make it hard on everyone. Truly reasonable and peaceful protestors get treated pretty badly because of groups like the church that was picketing soldiers funerals.

Let's not treat the other side as angels without an agenda either though. If making a molehill into a mountain and supressing a few rights will keep the protestors (and bad press) out of sight, they'll jump on it in a heartbeat! Local officials will also protect their interests without regard for the right to peacefully protest. That's what happens when you have a confict of interests with the big boy's though.

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

[SmokinDVM]

George, save your breath, Barry is not here to discuss this issue, just to spread his anger and hatred towards Republicans, and anyone who disagrees with him.

Now cnb, it's just you man, it's just you.

[ggiese]

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

So you're condoning someone acting like an ass - TRYING to get arrested - so they can prove the point that they got arrested for carrying out their "civil rights"???

Again - while it seems logical that anywhere on American soil someone can say what they want, when they want and how they want based upon the US consitution - even the Supreme Court disagrees with you... They've had numerous rulings over our history placing limits on what free speech really is. But there are those who are very willing will test those limits for the purpose of furthering their argument that we are not a free society...

But then, Barry - do you really wanna see what free speech is not or what a "nazi" government REALLY is? Have one of your pals heckle the administration during a speech in Iran - or Syria - or North Korea - or Iraq (before we engaged them). It won't take much to draw a response - far less than it would if you tried it here... And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you. I assure you - there would be no desire to ever heckle again (if you managed to survive the "discussion" they had with you about "heckling")...

No comparison, my friend - NO COMPARISON...

Free does not mean without responsibility...

[WhiteWidow]

And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you.

This is a good point. While the US may have its problems, I'm sure not moving anywhere else, and I don't see the people who think it is so bad here moving either.

I'd go to Australia though, I'll bet that place is pretty cool. Vancouver would be ok except for all the Vietnimese turf wars and what not.

[SmokinDVM]

So you're condoning someone acting like an ass - TRYING to get arrested - so they can prove the point that they got arrested for carrying out their "civil rights"???

Again - while it seems logical that anywhere on American soil someone can say what they want, when they want and how they want based upon the US consitution - even the Supreme Court disagrees with you... They've had numerous rulings over our history placing limits on what free speech really is. But there are those who are very willing will test those limits for the purpose of furthering their argument that we are not a free society...

But then, Barry - do you really wanna see what free speech is not or what a "nazi" government REALLY is? Have one of your pals heckle the administration during a speech in Iran - or Syria - or North Korea - or Iraq (before we engaged them). It won't take much to draw a response - far less than it would if you tried it here... And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you. I assure you - there would be no desire to ever heckle again (if you managed to survive the "discussion" they had with you about "heckling")...

No comparison, my friend - NO COMPARISON...

Free does not mean without responsibility...

Actually, my response was directed at the quoted statement by Kenyth. Buuuut, as long as you've brought it up...

What you seem to be saying is that it's OK for those overzealous LEO's to crack a few heads, or strip search, or violate some CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, of people who are doing NO PHYSICAL harm, MENTAL harm, nor otherwise threatening behavior, just because they would get much worse in another country.
Last time I checked, WE ARE NOT IN ONE OF THOSE COUNTRIES! And in my opinion, an opinion most neocons obviously don't agree with, I'd rather they not continue eroding away our rights, which only leads to our Country being more like those other countries.

Dumbya said it himself when he blurted out, "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier -
just so long as I'm the dictator." I think that pretty much says it all.

You're right, free doesn't mean without responsibility. Kinda like the responsibility of the elected officials not to abuse their office.

[ggiese]

Nope - not condoning LEO's from cracking heads, but I'm also not really fond of people like the Westboro Baptist church that protests soldier's funerals or the gay community (even though I may SOMEWHAT agree with some of their message - their way of presenting it turns me off). And to point at those people and say they have the freedom of speech... Or the American Nazi Party that wants to protest in the midst of a largely jewish community... That's absolutely, positively looking for trouble...

Just like those liberals who are TRYING to get arrested by pushing the limits to the absolute outside of the bounds of reasonableness. Forming a human pyramid of naked men, with the exception of thong underwear, is WELL outside of the bounds of reasonableness - I don't care WHO you are. I don't want to look at that nonsense - and are you suggesting that I am forced to in the name of "freedom of speech"?

In the current state of heigthened fears over terrorist attacks on our infrastructure - I believe there has to be a sense of reasonableness with protesting high value "targets" (politicians). If you don't understand that - I'm not EVER going to make you understand...

We're at a different point in history. Back in the 40's, 50's and even into the 60's, Americans wouldn't EVEN THINK of acting like some are acting now. It wasn't proper respect for the office or for the institution that is the US. That seems to have been thrown out the window in favor of "freedom of speech". So it seems the pendulum is swinging MORE in the favor of freedoms that weren't even dreamed of 20, 30 or 40 years ago.... Do you also condone the use of an American flag as a door mat - or burned because people disagree with the policies of the government (which, by the way, was a "protected" expression of free speech)???

And you complain the freedom of speech is being taken away??? Seems to me it's more prevalant than it was in the past...

[WhiteWidow]

......but I'm also not really fond of people like the Westboro Baptist church that protests soldier's funerals

I don't know if I'd consider that a "church." I think it was just one in-bred family that was insane, basically.

I think ggiese is trying to say that its cool to protest, but you shouldn't make a complete jack-ass out of yourself in doing so. Whatever message the naked pyramid is sending (which isn't clear, which makes it an ineffective protest in itself), its not going to get taken seriously, even though it is hilarious.

[cigarsarge]

Barry...If you had a five year old and came across a naked pyramid of humans...In the view of the pubic... How would you feel?

[Kenyth]

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

I didn't say it was OK. I said that's the way it IS. If you think it's bad now, read up on how things were done as little as a hundred years ago. The world can be a very unfair place. Just because someone cries foul, it doesn't mean everything changes. You'll have to fight it in court. That takes a lot of money and dedication. Not a job for one man. That's why it's best to organize or join a respected interest group and volunteer money and time there. You probably won't get to wear thongs in public as much, but you just might get legal representation and a voice that can really make a difference. Everyone has their own interests and tries to protect them as best they can, so it won't be easy. Pick your battles wisely and don't expend yourself on a fools errand.

Segregating picketers based on their message is wrong, but making an obscene spectacle in public is also wrong. Too often protests turn into embarassments and sometimes riots. Butting heads with the local authorities won't win you much sympathy. Righteousness generally isn't taken much into consideration when dealing with troublemakerswho incite disturbances.

[SmokinDVM]

Nope - not condoning LEO's from cracking heads, but I'm also not really fond of people like the Westboro Baptist church that protests soldier's funerals or the gay community (even though I may SOMEWHAT agree with some of their message - their way of presenting it turns me off). And to point at those people and say they have the freedom of speech... Or the American Nazi Party that wants to protest in the midst of a largely jewish community... That's absolutely, positively looking for trouble...

Just like those liberals who are TRYING to get arrested by pushing the limits to the absolute outside of the bounds of reasonableness. Forming a human pyramid of naked men, with the exception of thong underwear, is WELL outside of the bounds of reasonableness - I don't care WHO you are. I don't want to look at that nonsense - and are you suggesting that I am forced to in the name of "freedom of speech"?

In the current state of heigthened fears over terrorist attacks on our infrastructure - I believe there has to be a sense of reasonableness with protesting high value "targets" (politicians). If you don't understand that - I'm not EVER going to make you understand...

We're at a different point in history. Back in the 40's, 50's and even into the 60's, Americans wouldn't EVEN THINK of acting like some are acting now. It wasn't proper respect for the office or for the institution that is the US. That seems to have been thrown out the window in favor of "freedom of speech". So it seems the pendulum is swinging MORE in the favor of freedoms that weren't even dreamed of 20, 30 or 40 years ago.... Do you also condone the use of an American flag as a door mat - or burned because people disagree with the policies of the government (which, by the way, was a "protected" expression of free speech)???

And you complain the freedom of speech is being taken away??? Seems to me it's more prevalant than it was in the past...

Whether or not we agree with the Westboro freaks, or the gay community, or even the nazis is irrelevant. What is, is that they have a right to have their points, or protests, heard, or more accurately, have a right to voice them. None of these groups, however, has any relationship with a public official who just doesn't want to be exposed to a dissenting viewpoint. As long as they're not inciting to riot, or trespassing, etc., they have every right.

As far as the human pyramid, disgusting as it may be, is still a valid expression of free speech. If you don't like the message, don't listen, or look, whichever the case may be. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO WATCH.

Please stop with this fear of "turrists" bullshit. It's a complete smokescreen. Non of those "high value" targets, are in any more danger than at any other time in our history. I know they would like you to think that, as it puffs up their head even more.

Maybe it's got something do to with DESERVING respect. It really needs to be earned. BTW, disrespecting public officials is a VERY long held tradition in this Country.

Flag burning, or its use as a doormat, is all protected speech. Do I personally burn flags, no, but I support the rights of those who might.

Protection of free speech means protection of possibly offensive speech. If it wasn't offensive, it wouldn't need protection. That was the point of the First Amendment.

I don't think free speech is more prevalent, the protestors are just better organized. And, in the case of this admin, they've created more of them.

[Kenyth]

As far as the human pyramid, disgusting as it may be, is still a valid expression of free speech. If you don't like the message, don't listen, or look, whichever the case may be. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO WATCH.

Protection of free speech means protection of possibly offensive speech. If it wasn't offensive, it wouldn't need protection. That was the point of the First Amendment.

Valid? Saying, "I objec to the Iraq war and the treatment of POW's by the US military! I think we're wrong and should pull out our troops immediately!", to whomever will listen, is a valid expression of free speech. Writing it on a placard or billboard, or advertising it in the media is a valid expression of free speech. Strutting around near naked in public doing stupid human tricks isn't free speech. It's using shock factor and breaking ordinances or committing misdemeanors to get attention. The fact that it's in plain view in public, forces people to see it. That's the whole point of something like that. To force people to take notice of you and shock or appall them enough to remember you. If you subscribe to this tactic of attention whoring, you'd better be willing to take your lumps. I've little sympathy.

[SmokinDVM]

Valid? Saying, "I objec to the Iraq war and the treatment of POW's by the US military! I think we're wrong and should pull out our troops immediately!", to whomever will listen, is a valid expression of free speech. Writing it on a placard or billboard, or advertising it in the media is a valid expression of free speech. Strutting around near naked in public doing stupid human tricks isn't free speech. It's using shock factor and breaking ordinances or committing misdemeanors to get attention. The fact that it's in plain view in public, forces people to see it. That's the whole point of something like that. To force people to take notice of you and shock or appall them enough to remember you. If you subscribe to this tactic of attention whoring, you'd better be willing to take your lumps. I've little sympathy.

Again, BECAUSE IT OFFENDS YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T FREE SPEECH.

If it was all white bread and milk toast, there would be no need for the protection of free speech. Life isn't all warm and fuzzy, get used to it.

Shock factor, breaking ordinances, committing misdemeanors? Oh, those are most definitely worse than lies leading to the deaths of thousands, torture, and on and on. It's interesting to know that you're more concerned with a few guys wearing thongs, than anything that might ACTUALLY HURT SOMEONE.

[Kenyth]

Again, BECAUSE IT OFFENDS YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT ISN'T FREE SPEECH.

If it was all white bread and milk toast, there would be no need for the protection of free speech. Life isn't all warm and fuzzy, get used to it.

Shock factor, breaking ordinances, committing misdemeanors? Oh, those are most definitely worse than lies leading to the deaths of thousands, torture, and on and on. It's interesting to know that you're more concerned with a few guys wearing thongs, than anything that might ACTUALLY HURT SOMEONE.

Nope, I am concerned with point one AND point two! I did not say one was more important than the other. The occurance of one does not excuse the other. They are mutually exclusive events. I use my right to vote to attend to points regarding leadership, and support local law enforcement actions to attend to points regarding public disturbances. I accept that my power to change things on points regarding government decisions is limited. I also accept that those in power may treat me unfairly in the pursuit of what they feel are the community's best interests. I don't waggle my dick in public as some sort of media based weapon to make up for it. Only in private to impress the ladies.

[WhiteWidow]

I'm going to assume that in most places, it would be illegal or at least get you a ticket to go around in public with nothing but underwear on. So the fact that you're not supposed to naked in the first place would override the fact that you are protesting. Or can we do whatever we want as long as we're "making a statement?" I think pot should be legal, does that mean I can go out in public and fire up a big joint in front of everybody? Man, they'd throw me jail in a heartbeat.

I hate people who get "offended" at every little thing as much as anyone, but I think when the party in question is doing something against the law in the first place, then yeah, they're probably going to get hassled.

Also, I'm wondering how you can feel that their is no terrorist threat? Let's see, in the last 10 years the WTC was attacked twice, OK City, US embassy in Africa, Spain, London, the USS Cole have all happened, and that's just the ones I can think of right now.

No, I don't run around all day in "fear" that we are all going to die (hell, I live at a university, they sure won't blow that up) but I think with all the attacks, it can be classified as a "threat." (not just to us, but to the world)

Now someone will probably tell me, "terrorist attacks have always happened, fighting them won't do any good, etc., etc.," but that is basically the same thing as saying you shouldn't weed your yard because there will just be another weed, or arresting Al Capone was a waste of time because we still have crime today.

[SuperChuck]

Protection of free speech means protection of possibly offensive speech. If it wasn't offensive, it wouldn't need protection. That was the point of the First Amendment.

There's a good quote I can't find, so I'll paraphrase it. I want to attribute it to Jefferson, but I might be wrong. Basically:

Freedom of speech isn't for you, it's for those with whom you disagree.

It's real easy to defend your own freedom to say what you believe, but it's really hard to remember that the guy you disagree with has that same freedom.

Should peaceful protests be broken up and protesters arrested? No.
Does it happen? Yes.
Has it happened since the Vietnam Era? Yes.

Do some protesters want to be arrested? Yes.

Sometimes it furthers your cause. Think about Martin Luther King, Jr. I doubt we'd be taking Jan 15th off every year if he was never arrested.

I was just listening to a lady in England who refused to pay taxes to protest something. They threw her in jail. When a politician had her freed, she wanted to go back. She was knowingly breaking the law and felt she should face the consequence of her action. Without going to jail, she ceased to be protesting, she was just getting away with not paying taxes.

[SuperChuck]

I'm going to assume that in most places, it would be illegal or at least get you a ticket to go around in public with nothing but underwear on. So the fact that you're not supposed to naked in the first place would override the fact that you are protesting. Or can we do whatever we want as long as we're "making a statement?"

Yeah, I'd think that's probably illegal and would probably result in some temporary detainment and maybe a fine. A protester should understand this and accept responsibility for the act.

Similarly, the famous Boston Tea Party was quite illegal and the Sons of Liberty would have had to face severe punishment if they were arrested. I imagine most of those protesters would have accepted the responsibility for their actions (even if they were to be hanged).

I think pot should be legal, does that mean I can go out in public and fire up a big joint in front of everybody? Man, they'd throw me jail in a heartbeat.

That could even be your protest. A lot of protesters protest by performing an illegal act. However, you shouldn't be shocked when you're arrested. Sometimes being a martyr helps your cause.

Also, I'm wondering how you can feel that their is no terrorist threat? Let's see, in the last 10 years the WTC was attacked twice, OK City, US embassy in Africa, Spain, London, the USS Cole have all happened, and that's just the ones I can think of right now.

I don't feel there was more of a terror threat on Sept. 12 than the was on Sept. 10.
I don't feel the threat of terrorism should change my life, my rights, or my liberties.
I feel that if things do change, that the terrorists have won.

I believe in the New Hampshire motto: "Life Free or Die". I believe we often forget that second half. To be free means to have some degree of danger. If we hide indoors or allow our government carte blanc to spy on us, we may be safe, but we will certainly not be free. If we choose to be free, we must accept that we will never be safe.

A couple weeks ago in India, the day after several trains were bombed during rush hour, people were piling on to the trains to go to work. BBC interviewed one of them and his response was quite simple: life goes on as it did before; we will not allow terrorists to make us afraid. To me, that's courage.

[SmokinDVM]

Nope, I am concerned with point one AND point two! I did not say one was more important than the other. The occurance of one does not excuse the other. They are mutually exclusive events. I use my right to vote to attend to points regarding leadership, and support local law enforcement actions to attend to points regarding public disturbances. I accept that my power to change things on points regarding government decisions is limited. I also accept that those in power may treat me unfairly in the pursuit of what they feel are the community's best interests. I don't waggle my dick in public as some sort of media based weapon to make up for it. Only in private to impress the ladies.

The highlighted statement has me very worried.
What about being treated "unfairly", I'll use that here to replace "violate my rights", by those in power, in the pursuit of what they feel are in their OWN best interests?

And, where you waggle it, as long as it's covered with something, is your RIGHT. I won't pay much attention, cause I ain't shopping. Maybe those guys that can't look away, and that it makes soo nervous, need to take a deep reflective look at themselves?

[SmokinDVM]

Yeah, I'd think that's probably illegal and would probably result in some temporary detainment and maybe a fine. A protester should understand this and accept responsibility for the act.

Similarly, the famous Boston Tea Party was quite illegal and the Sons of Liberty would have had to face severe punishment if they were arrested. I imagine most of those protesters would have accepted the responsibility for their actions (even if they were to be hanged).


That could even be your protest. A lot of protesters protest by performing an illegal act. However, you shouldn't be shocked when you're arrested. Sometimes being a martyr helps your cause.


I don't feel there was more of a terror threat on Sept. 12 than the was on Sept. 10.
I don't feel the threat of terrorism should change my life, my rights, or my liberties.
I feel that if things do change, that the terrorists have won.

I believe in the New Hampshire motto: "Life Free or Die". I believe we often forget that second half. To be free means to have some degree of danger. If we hide indoors or allow our government carte blanc to spy on us, we may be safe, but we will certainly not be free. If we choose to be free, we must accept that we will never be safe.

A couple weeks ago in India, the day after several trains were bombed during rush hour, people were piling on to the trains to go to work. BBC interviewed one of them and his response was quite simple: life goes on as it did before; we will not allow terrorists to make us afraid. To me, that's courage.

They should be arrested, IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING ILLEGAL. I doubt most of these people were.

To the rest of your post, and especially the NH motto

[WhiteWidow]

I don't feel there was more of a terror threat on Sept. 12 than the was on Sept. 10.
I don't feel the threat of terrorism should change my life, my rights, or my liberties.
I feel that if things do change, that the terrorists have won.

I agree with this, it is unfortunate such a tradgedy had to occur right in front of us for it to become a priority, though.