Middle east outcome

[SmokinDVM]

Just curious DVM...What rights have you personally lost? I'm still living my life the way I was before Bush.

I still move around the country feely, I tote my gun around. I voice my opinion without repercussion from the government.

What would we loose if liberals had their way all the time? Checks and balances do work.

One more thing I've noticed about liberals...When they get on the defensive they tend to call names and shout just as you have done to WW. You have no clue as to his what he has gone through in his life. If you can't dazzle em with brillance...Baffle em with bullshit.

WW is obviously pretty intelllegent and studied. He did not taunt you. he showed you respect...Just differed in opinion.

Your attitude is common of liberals. That is the reason I'll never understand em.

I pay attention...Very close attention.

Just because you haven't noticed them being abused, doesn't mean they haven't been. How would you know anyway, as they don't have to tell you. The right you've lost is the right to be protected from unwarranted search and or siezure.

You've been so indoctrinated by the repukes constant harping about those damned liberals, you can't see the pubes stabbing you in the back. Nor, it seams, do you care.

WW did remark about my easy life. His assumption came first. He went to college, BFD. Dumbya went to college too. Just going means nothing, it's what you take away from the experience.

I've been making my own way since I was 15, got a few meals here and there from some good people, obviously not repukes, but never asked for any handouts. Joined the Army, as soon as I was old enough. I worked my way through college also, all while supporting a Family. 8 years of 18+ hour days, seasonal farm work, digging ditches, tutoring other students, ANYTHING to make a couple more bucks. I've paid my dues, and then some. So, I don't take it too kindly when some scholorship baby makes comments about my "easy life".

If you don't like my "colorful" descriptions of the people I feal are the real enemies of this Country, well too bad.
As I have seen it, and I pay attention, conservatives have let themselves be hijacked by a party that doesn't represent the majority, but fail to see that it's happened. They blindly follow around behind their "leaders", never asking any questions or challenging the opinions of their party leaders. This isn't the way the Democrats/Liberals work. Many, though not all, at least attempt to THINK before acting on a problem. Action without thought is almost always a recipe for disaster.

[SmokinDVM]

You were the one that brought up the difficulty of my college career. If you don't want to hear about my life, don't bring it up.

Check post #65

[WhiteWidow]

WW did remark about my easy life. His assumption came first. He went to college, BFD. Dumbya went to college too. Just going means nothing, it's what you take away from the experience.

If you paid attention you would notice my point was that your life is most definetly better and easier than that of someone living in Nazi Germany, which you compared our country to. I never belittled or mentioned anything about your life.

I'm done here, this went from being a good discussion to a bunch of unrelated bullshit.

[SmokinDVM]

Remember what I said about what's NOT in the news? The story broke a while back that Saddam did in fact have weapons of mass death. You can say that they were old, but it still would have killed people, and they were weapons that Saddam was bound by treaty to get rid of. He denied ever having them. About the same time many high ranking officials in his regime were coming out saying that he had WMD's that have been hidden in Syria, and he was in fact developing nuclear capability. There was a huge flurry of retorts by the dems which quickly subsided and the story "went away." But have you noticed that the "Bush lied" line is no longer being used by them? There were also documents found in Zarquawi's safe house that linked saddam to Al Queda, but, again, that story has been ignored by the news media. I can only surmise that they now realize that Bush didn't lie, but they aren't talking about it. Think about it. I am convinced that Iraq had WMD and we will find out where they went eventually.

The middle east has been teaching hatred of America for many, many years. Even our so called allies have been doing it. It's in their school systems and their culture. Are we breeding terrorists? I don't think so. I think perhaps they are coming of age and the war is bringing them out, but I don't think they are converting because we are there. It's been in their culture for years and diplomatic efforts by past administrations failed to discourage it. Terrorist strikes against the US would have happened eventually. 9/11 would have only been the beginning. There have been several major plans to attack us on our own soil that have been thwarted because of our improved ability to gather intelligence, which was definately lacking pre 9/11. The plan to destroy the WTC had been in the making for 2 years or more, long before Bush took office.

I also believe that the war was necessary. At the time Saddam was defying all of the nations of the world, and the UN (another questionable organization) was united in their opinion that he had to put up or shut up. Instead he continued his course and thumbed his nose at the world. At the time of our entry into Iraq, the majority of politicians in this and other countries, including Kerry and Hillary, gave authority to the President to take military action. Then the election came up and they all backpeddled. Hell, Kerry was being laughed at throughout the election with his famous vote for it, then against it. I was there, we all were, but it seems some of us don't remember.

What, exactly, is the plan that the Democrats have? I have yet to hear it, and maybe if I do I can change my mind. Diplomacy? We tried diplomacy for years only to find that terrorist cells were being formed all over the world with the intent of attacking us. Isreal tried the diplomatic route with Lebanon for the past 7 years. In the mean time, the Hezbollah's armed themselves to the teeth and aimed their missiles at Isreal. Then they entered the country, shot up a number of Isreali villages and took 2 soldiers hostage. The Isreali's felt justified in retaliating because of the direct threat on their northern border, and the fact that they were attacked while they were in the middle of diplomatic talks with Lebanon. Now that Hezbollah is getting their ass kicked, Syria and the Hezbolla's are pushing for a cease fire. Isreal isn't going to let that happen and allow Hezbollah to regroup and rearm.

I would love to see the world at peace, but the reality is that it isn't. Until the day comes where we can talk with other cultures on a level field (and that means that tey have to be willing to see our side, too) there will be conflicts, and there will be times when force, as distasteful as it is, will be unavoidable.

You're one of those, that claim WMD's existed in Iraq when we invaded. Where are they? Have you seen, or, as you always want me to do, can you provide, proof? And those "high ranking" Iraqi officials, those whose reports were deemed completely unreliable by the CIA? And the "moved into Syria" line has been so overused, and is so incredibly unsubstantiated, I can't believe anyone would be so gullible. Provide actual proof, which if dumbya and the pubes had would be plastered on fox "news" 24/7, or stop bringing up these fantasy stories.

As far as Isreal is concerned, they do almost as much to keep things stirred up as the terrorists. Attacking known terrorist strongholds is one thing, taking out the Lebanese infrastructure, removing the average persons ability to live in their homes, is unjustified.
Since the Middle East has been preaching hatred, and we haven't been giving them ANY reason to see it any other way, let's just keep doing the same thing. Remember the definition of insanity.

Just like every warmonger, you attack any Country, and the U.N., because they didn't back your boy when it came to attacking Iraq. Saddam was a neutered dictator. He had NO WMD's, hell, he couldn't even move freely in his own country. Sure, he was a dangerous man.
We forced out the remaining U.N. Inspectors, even as they were reporting finding NO VIOLATIONS.

I agree, sometimes force is unavoidable. It shouldn't be used as the first line of "diplomacy" however.


If any of you REALLY wanted to see/hear another viewpoint, they are readily available. You simply have to look. The Democrats proposals won't be seen on fox, so you'll have to go get them.

[ggiese]

Awwww, c'mon... You're not serious, are you???

#1 - http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9492566/detail.html

#2 - http://www.joplinindependent.com/dis...lins1091290323

#3 - http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=75151

#4 - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable

http://www.pressaction.com/news/webl.../aclu12092004/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0429-07.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in644005.shtml

http://newsmine.org/archive/security...sh-sticker.txt

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16704

And I could go on all day. Obviously the "mainstream" media, or where you read/watch/listen to the news isn't paying attention either.

#1 - Under a city code in Ferndale, Kittila was charged with disorderly conduct for inciting people to honk their horns in a busy part of town. The charge is a misdemeanor with a possible penalty of a $500 fine and/or 90 days in jail. A war protester encouraging people to honk their horns is picked up for DC- a minor misdemeanor? And you find that strange??? Okay.... (Barry - they routinely arrest Jehovah's Witnesses as well for complaints they receive from people who don't appreciate them going door to door, but somehow I don't think it's part of the Republican conspiracy).

#2 - At least two people were arrested, and stories from witnesses report this was with little provocation, as our people could not move back fast enough because of so many people behind them. Do ya think that was a tad bit slanted??? An article written in the first person about his personal experiences?? Puhhhlllleeeeaaassseee.....

#3 - An undercover DeKalb County Homeland Security detective was assigned to conduct surveillance of the protest and the protestors, and take the photographs. The detective arrested Childs and another protester after he saw Childs approach him and write down, on a piece of paper, the license plate number of his unmarked government car.

"They told me if I didn't give over the piece of paper I would go to jail and I refused and I went to jail, and the piece of paper was taken away from me at the jail and the officer who transferred me said that was why I was arrested," Childs said on Wednesday.

Oh, I can guarantee there is more to this story then what "Childs" said... If it's a problem, I assure you the system will not allow it's abuse...

#4 - Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula threw out the disorderly conduct charge against Neel, declaring, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

See....

#5 - The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed a federal lawsuit today on behalf of five men who were arrested after they stripped down to thong underwear and formed a human pyramid in anticipation of President Bush’s motorcade procession through Lancaster County. The men attempted to re-create the infamous image that emerged from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq.

Oh, c'mon, Barry - a human pyramid of guys naked except for thong underwear??? They lock up drunken college students for far less...

God I'm getting a headache from reading this nonsense...


I'm routinely paid to attend various company's annual meetings, where I am instructed to remove anyone who attempts to disrupt the meeting. Similar to some of the episodes you cite.

Free speech does not mean we are totally free to say what we want, when we want, where we want... Many argue we can - and I'll tell ya - it'll get you arrested some times... It even happened while Clinton made his speeches and appearances...

But to say that our country is going in the toilet and we're heading towards a totalitarian regime because these are the things that are happening, is akin to saying our society is doomed because we don't have a TRUE baseball world series...

[cigarsarge]

Just because you haven't noticed them being abused, doesn't mean they haven't been. How would you know anyway, as they don't have to tell you. The right you've lost is the right to be protected from unwarranted search and or siezure.

You've been so indoctrinated by the repukes constant harping about those damned liberals, you can't see the pubes stabbing you in the back. Nor, it seams, do you care.

WW did remark about my easy life. His assumption came first. He went to college, BFD. Dumbya went to college too. Just going means nothing, it's what you take away from the experience.

I've been making my own way since I was 15, got a few meals here and there from some good people, obviously not repukes, but never asked for any handouts. Joined the Army, as soon as I was old enough. I worked my way through college also, all while supporting a Family. 8 years of 18+ hour days, seasonal farm work, digging ditches, tutoring other students, ANYTHING to make a couple more bucks. I've paid my dues, and then some. So, I don't take it too kindly when some scholorship baby makes comments about my "easy life".

If you don't like my "colorful" descriptions of the people I feal are the real enemies of this Country, well too bad.
As I have seen it, and I pay attention, conservatives have let themselves be hijacked by a party that doesn't represent the majority, but fail to see that it's happened. They blindly follow around behind their "leaders", never asking any questions or challenging the opinions of their party leaders. This isn't the way the Democrats/Liberals work. Many, though not all, at least attempt to THINK before acting on a problem. Action without thought is almost always a recipe for disaster.

Well...The last I checked I am protected from unwarranted search and siezure...Something the constitution protects. Please name me some UNITED STATES CITIZENS that have had unwarranted searches and siezures by the Bush administration.

The pubes stabing me in the back...WTF is that crap. Poor choice of words or poor spelling.

You do have an easy life compared to many. Life ain't easy for the working people...That includes you...But

A friend of mine's dad was a Russian Jew. His parents sent him over to America on a cattle boat when he was nine years old to save him from oppression...By himself. He never saw or heard from them again.

He landed in America...Went to work...Made a life for himself...and died a fairly wealthy man.

I think that is the hard life WW was speaking about. I seriously doubt your life ever was that tough...I know mine never was and I have worked hard for all I have got. I still do all I can for an extra buck. You never get your dues paid in my opinion. Saying you have paid all your dues and then some is garbage...Typical liberal train of thought. Nobody except a very few get a free ride.

I don't mind "colorful descriptions" of anything. When "colorful" becomes taunting or baiting it's a different story. Just because someone has not had as much life experence as you does not deny them there opinion...That may be totally correct.

By the way...You are making unfounded assumptions about me also. I'm not led around by the nose by anybody.

If there is one thing I've learned from liberals...Think before you act. They should think more and act less.

[ggiese]

I don't give a crap about airline security, if that's what you want to call it. I fail to see how taking off my shoes prevents terrorist acts.

I say they put you through the x-ray machine head to toe - then you don't have to take off your shoes...

[SmokinDVM]

If you paid attention you would notice my point was that your life is most definetly better and easier than that of someone living in Nazi Germany, which you compared our country to. I never belittled or mentioned anything about your life.

I'm done here, this went from being a good discussion to a bunch of unrelated bullshit.

You know why my life is better than someones that lived in Nazi Germany? BECAUSE I DON'T LIVE IN NAZI GERMANY. I do, however, live in a Country whose leaders would just love to have the power and control of those Nazis, and work towards that end every day.

If you seriously think you live under a Nazi regime, then you have obviously led a very easy and sheltered life, and probably haven't had to overcome any kind of real challenges in life other than trying to figure out how to not take responsibility for your own actions.

Who's not "taking responsibility"? Nice try, whining foul, but I call BULLSHIT on it.

[SmokinDVM]

Awwww, c'mon... You're not serious, are you???



#1 - Under a city code in Ferndale, Kittila was charged with disorderly conduct for inciting people to honk their horns in a busy part of town. The charge is a misdemeanor with a possible penalty of a $500 fine and/or 90 days in jail. A war protester encouraging people to honk their horns is picked up for DC- a minor misdemeanor? And you find that strange??? Okay.... (Barry - they routinely arrest Jehovah's Witnesses as well for complaints they receive from people who don't appreciate them going door to door, but somehow I don't think it's part of the Republican conspiracy).

#2 - At least two people were arrested, and stories from witnesses report this was with little provocation, as our people could not move back fast enough because of so many people behind them. Do ya think that was a tad bit slanted??? An article written in the first person about his personal experiences?? Puhhhlllleeeeaaassseee.....

#3 - An undercover DeKalb County Homeland Security detective was assigned to conduct surveillance of the protest and the protestors, and take the photographs. The detective arrested Childs and another protester after he saw Childs approach him and write down, on a piece of paper, the license plate number of his unmarked government car.

"They told me if I didn't give over the piece of paper I would go to jail and I refused and I went to jail, and the piece of paper was taken away from me at the jail and the officer who transferred me said that was why I was arrested," Childs said on Wednesday.

Oh, I can guarantee there is more to this story then what "Childs" said... If it's a problem, I assure you the system will not allow it's abuse...

#4 - Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula threw out the disorderly conduct charge against Neel, declaring, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

See....

#5 - The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed a federal lawsuit today on behalf of five men who were arrested after they stripped down to thong underwear and formed a human pyramid in anticipation of President Bush’s motorcade procession through Lancaster County. The men attempted to re-create the infamous image that emerged from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq.

Oh, c'mon, Barry - a human pyramid of guys naked except for thong underwear??? They lock up drunken college students for far less...

God I'm getting a headache from reading this nonsense...


I'm routinely paid to attend various company's annual meetings, where I am instructed to remove anyone who attempts to disrupt the meeting. Similar to some of the episodes you cite.

Free speech does not mean we are totally free to say what we want, when we want, where we want... Many argue we can - and I'll tell ya - it'll get you arrested some times... It even happened while Clinton made his speeches and appearances...

But to say that our country is going in the toilet and we're heading towards a totalitarian regime because these are the things that are happening, is akin to saying our society is doomed because we don't have a TRUE baseball world series...

Going door to door is completely different than peaceful public protest.
It's also not a private company's meeting.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I see multiple violations in those links. Funny how you don't.
And that's just the 1st Amendment, their violations don't just stop there.

[SmokinDVM]

A friend of mine's dad ...

WTF is that? Shall we sink to that level now? Because if we are, it should be noted where it started, so as to avoid confusion later.

Oh, you didn't see that, in your diligence, that right was removed by the "patriot" act. Ever notice when the government wants to screw you, they just wrap it up neatly in the flag, and ya'll eat it right up?

I never said I was done paying dues. I have, however, racked up more than my share to date. Enough to not have to take backhanded stabs by anyone, especially some young smartass.


I didn't mention anything about you being led around by the nose. I did mention conservatives who blindly follow. If you're one of those, speak up, if not, why take offense to it?

[cigarsarge]

I just re-read the the Patroit Act that Barry says takes our personal freedoms away. It does not authorize any intrusion into citizens lifes.

It does allow for civil penalties if the courts feel it has been done. It does allow the government to take steps to protect our way of life. It is not a perfect document...But it is a good start.

Barry... WW did not give a backhanded slap at you...But you seem to pass them out on a regular basis. Nobody has brought name calling into this except you. You may have gone to college...But you flunked People Skills 101.

You also made the statment lets build bunkers to keep the boogieman out. Well my friend...Nobody else here has been running around saying the sky is falling except you. Guess you better build one.

[SmokinDVM]

I just re-read the the Patroit Act that Barry says takes our personal freedoms away. It does not authorize any intrusion into citizens lifes.

It does allow for civil penalties if the courts feel it has been done. It does allow the government to take steps to protect our way of life. It is not a perfect document...But it is a good start.

Well, in your frantic scramble to read all the patriot act, and its hundreds of associated articles, you seemed to have missed a few key points. Follow the links, and read up on the truth. I doubt you will, as you wouldn't want the government knowing you visited a liberal website.
The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas:

1. Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
2. Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
3. Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
4. "Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).Link

Why the Patriot Act's expansion of records searches is unconstitutional
Section 215 of the Patriot Act violates the Constitution in several ways. It:

* Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.
* Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
* Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.
* Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment. Link.It doesn't seem so harmless to me.

Barry... WW did not give a backhanded slap at you...But you seem to pass them out on a regular basis. Nobody has brought name calling into this except you. You may have gone to college...But you flunked People Skills 101.

Actually, he did take a backhanded dig at me, and I returned in kind.
And, now the upstanding conservative hero, has also taken a jab. Welcome to the place where all of us liberal college flunkies hang out.

You also made the statment lets build bunkers to keep the boogieman out. Well my friend...Nobody else here has been running around saying the sky is falling except you. Guess you better build one.

Actually, you've misunderstood my post, AGAIN. Maybe a remedial course on reading comprehension is in order?
What was said: If you, and your rrw fearmongering masters, are so afraid of the terrorists attacking you in your home, repeal the fucking bullshit patriot act, and build yourselves a deep bunker to move into instead. That way the rest of us, who have a pair swinging, don't have to give up our Constitutional Rights just for a bunch of pussies.
And, if the shoe fits, wear it.

[cigarsarge]

I...Like you... Have studied the Patriot Act numerous times. Today was not mt first time to look it over as you seem to believe.

Unlike you I don't believe the government is snooping into my every aspect of my life so the ACLU page was no big deal...They make about as much sense as you.

I just realized something...You left wingers have alot in common with the far right. You both believe the government is sneaking up on you to violate your constitutional rights.

[SmokinDVM]

I...Like you... Have studied the Patriot Act numerous times. Today was not mt first time to look it over as you seem to believe.

Unlike you I don't believe the government is snooping into my every aspect of my life so the ACLU page was no big deal...They make about as much sense as you.

I just realized something...You left wingers have alot in common with the far right. You both believe the government is sneaking up on you to violate your constitutional rights.

The point is, you don't KNOW if they are or not, and they don't have to tell you.


And I'll bet thousands of jews continued to deny the possibility that they were being taken to their death, right up untill it happened.

Sometimes, the conspiracy theory is true. I'd rather not have to just trust that the government will do the right thing, no matter who's in charge at the time. Because, the thing that usually happens, is seldom right for anyone except those in charge. History backs me up on this one.

[bluesman455]

[bluesman455]

[SuperChuck]

I just realized something...You left wingers have alot in common with the far right. You both believe the government is sneaking up on you to violate your constitutional rights.

Hehehe, I was JUST thinking that!

It seems that the far left and the far right are both yelling "You're taking away my rights!"

-----------

Just to comment on the Patriot act real quickly...

No one ever wanted the Patriot Act to be a permanent solution. It was only meant as a stopgap to help the executive branch fight a "war" we are unfamiliar with fighting.

The Patriot Act was extended recently, but i seem to recall it reduced a bit. It wasn't significant, but it was a baby step toward its revocation.

[Kenyth]

Suppressing protestors is nothing new. It's been happening as long as I can remember. Protestors have the habit of stabbing themselves in the foot to get attention. I don't think peaceful protesting equates to being a royal pain in the ass or a major disruption at an event. Many protestors will take things too far, given the opportunity. The local officials don't particularly like being embarrassed by disruptive behavior when the big guys come to visit. They see it as a reflection on themselves and their ability to provide for the VIP visit. A disruptive occurance, such as a wayward egg or tomato for instance, will make sure visiting dignitaries will avoid their areas for a long time to come. This leads to a little overzealousness with the local law enforcement. It also leads to taking advantage of the situation to squelch the protestors exposure by the VIP's people.

[ggiese]

Suppressing protestors is nothing new. It's been happening as long as I can remember. Protestors have the habit of stabbing themselves in the foot to get attention. I don't think peaceful protesting equates to being a royal pain in the ass or a major disruption at an event. Many protestors will take things too far, given the opportunity. The local officials don't particularly like being embarrassed by disruptive behavior when the big guys come to visit. They see it as a reflection on themselves and their ability to provide for the VIP visit. A disruptive occurance, such as a wayward egg or tomato for instance, will make sure visiting dignitaries will avoid their areas for a long time to come. This leads to a little overzealousness with the local law enforcement. It also leads to taking advantage of the situation to squelch the protestors exposure by the VIP's people.

...yep - and then you get the knuckleheads who WANT to be arrested - they go out of their way to do it. It gets main stream press, advances their argument (that our country is becoming a nazi Germany), and they get to do the wounded puppy whine (exactly like that one first person press story DVM quoted)...

[Kenyth]

...yep - and then you get the knuckleheads who WANT to be arrested - they go out of their way to do it. It gets main stream press, advances their argument (that our country is becoming a nazi Germany), and they get to do the wounded puppy whine (exactly like that one first person press story DVM quoted)...

Idiots make it hard on everyone. Truly reasonable and peaceful protestors get treated pretty badly because of groups like the church that was picketing soldiers funerals.

Let's not treat the other side as angels without an agenda either though. If making a molehill into a mountain and supressing a few rights will keep the protestors (and bad press) out of sight, they'll jump on it in a heartbeat! Local officials will also protect their interests without regard for the right to peacefully protest. That's what happens when you have a confict of interests with the big boy's though.