Evolution...not really political, maybe controversial

[DPB]

sorry for any typos it was early when i wrote this and i am to lazy to edit ..
lol
take care peace
besides i am sure you get my point
doug

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Or you could just completely disregard religion...

stop using 1st century thinking. we know why religon was created and where it came from.also to say that god exists outside of our known universe or is beyond space and time is a cop out.

Awfully bold statement, but there are a few problems:

a) by telling people that they're straight up wrong, you're only going to make them more belligerent... (also i like how you dismiss the religious argument as being as absurd as "invisable purple dinosaurs" ... i mean, you're entitled to your views, but you'll never win an argument like that... might as well just scream 'NO!' while the other guy screams 'YES!', you'll get just as far. The only way you'd win this argument with a religious zealot is if they just got tired of listening to you talk and gave up...)

b) Never said God IS anything... I said that a being that is supposedly omnipotent and capable of creating reality as we know it would most certainly exist outside of that reality, and thus time and space.

c) i stick by my statement... if a being did exist that were in fact omnipotent and did in fact create the universe as we know it... that being would have had to have existed before said universe and thus able to exist outside of it... not so much a cop out as a logical progression
Why would a god who created time and space then be limited by his own creation... come on.

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Now go introduce yourself... jumping right into a religious debate isn't the best way to make a first impression on this board... if you've been lurking you should know that too.

[DPB]

living outside space and time? Now your inventing realms.
If a god exists then the universe if it was created would look like a different universe then we live in now.To try to prove or disprove god is like trying to prove or disprove that a invisible purple dinosaur exists, But again it doesn't mean that its true.But its not up to me to try to disprove its existence but up to whoever to prove its existence.without saying it cant be done that to me is a cop out and just to easy because something cant be explained just don't jump in and use fairy tales to try and explain it. Plus it still leaves a wide door open of if god created everything what created god? that would be a logical progression or regression.
Doug

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Science and religion can not coexist together either one is right and the other is wrong .Plus depending in which religion you grew up with gives a different story on how everything started.
If you were born into a christian family then you belive that story if it was hindu then its that story ,jewish etc..
What makes science story unique is that its story has the evidence to tell its story.
Either god (which ever god you believe in)started everything and again what started that god,or the universe and life as we know it was a slow non random process which took billions of years to happen.the probabilities of that happening are low but yet here we are talking about ,gods story is very improbable do to the lack(or none of) of evidence to show how it created everything.Your right you never want to get into a screaming match with a religous person but using clear rational thought and basic observation you would think would be enough ,there are plenty of books in the bookstore that tells science story,hawkins ,Segan, frans de hall ,richard dawkins ,eo wilson ,einstien etc...all books written in modern language in modern times within the 20th and 21st century using the advancements of technology to explain our and the universes origins.lets keep the thinking in these centuries is all i am saying.
Life did not begin from nothing there is always regress you just need to read up on the information that is public knowledge and is out there,from amino acids and proteins being introduced to nitrites to start a simple life. evolution and natural selection takes off from there as far as life on earth this is the best explanation we have right now with the over abundance of evidence given to prove this. You either except these facts as truths or you dont . my problem is that religion makes one satisfied without truly understanding the world we live in. To say god just did it then what just did god.
Peace to all
Doug
and you are right i was rude not to introduce myself in the proper way but i usually come here just to read up on cigars and saw this thread due to i have a great interest on the subject. And i usually do not like to post on any forum but just felt i wanted to add my 2 cents of thought .So i appologize for jumping in like i did and wont happen again on another subject . But I am Doug from NY and I love cigars padrons i live for....

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Mills LOL i do apologize for my poor grammar skills i try to be as articulate as possible but i always sucked with grammar . so just try to bear with it .
Sheeet i am just a cable guy Plus when i wrote that first post it was early in the morning and that didnt help either.
Doug

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A being that is omnipotent, by its very definition, cannot have a limited existence. What you are saying is that a omnipotent being cannot exist... what i'm saying is that if one did exist, it would most certainly exist outside the limitations of time and space... We aren't discussing the plausibility of a 'God' here anyway, we are discussing evolution... the thing you're missing is that you can scream logic all you want, but some who believes in said God will continue to do so... you wont convince them otherwise, so the next best thing is to at least make them understand that science doesn't contradict religion... which it doesn't. Its really a very simple argument, and weather you believe or not, i would hope a person of science could at least understand what i'm saying here. At some point in the tracing back of evolution, there was nothing, and then, there was something... call it what you will, the big bang, the first day, whatever... the point is, many people on the religious side of things refuse to admit existence could have happened in any other way than what is described in the bible... but there is no reason what was described in the bible couldn't just be short hand for the entire big bang/evolution theory. If you get someone who believes in God to accept the Big bang theory, even if you have to add that God created the big bang to the beginning of the story... is it not a step in the right direction? Even you have to admit that you have to teach people how to read before you teach them the underlying themes in Shakespeare... Anyrate, your argument doesn't seem much more open minded than that of the extreme religious zealots... evidence or not, you're all just basing your argument on what someone else told you, no one knows for sure... and have you noticed yet that i was never arguing with you? my whole initial argument was about the narrow mindedness of an extremist religious argument...

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I am basing my argument on what scientific evidence has shown us not what someone told me.We do know for sure what happened up to a point,then it goes into the whole quantum theory of multiverses before the big bang,Everything works out mathematically just we cant comprehend the answer even though it works out on paper .all i am saying god does not.because science does not have the answer now doesnt mean it wont 100 years from now.I am not afraid of not knowing its ok for me,for one day we will know or we wont know and thats ok also.But i will not use 1st century fairy tales in its place.I also agree with you.To try and have a religious person try to understand this you cant go to the last chapter in the book you have to teach them to read first .We only know what information we have been exposed to.growing up in a family that is totally religious of course thats all they will know and it will be hard to try to convince them otherwise until you lay out all the evidence and facts and try to explain slowly.I apologize if it seems like i was arguing with you. i was trying to get my point across.And I understand yours.
I also do not really care what people do in the privacy of their own homes,pray to whoever you want to. Just dont push your personal belief system into politics and policies that will effect my life.and when i say "your" i dont mean you personally just those who wish to do the above. Even though i dont care about what people do in private. religion does effect public policy and that bothers me.
You are correct that this was about evolution and there are plenty of things to discuss on that alone but once religion "creationism" ID or whatever got involved then yes God is brought into this conversation and if some feel god started the whole thing then i will debate that.If evolution will be discussed then lets stick to that and what the evidence shows us.
If you really want to learn more on this there are plenty of books in the bookstore on evolution that can be read just go to the earth science section and have a ball.Not sure which books? www.richarddawkins.net would be a good start to check out.
I am also very open minded. If you can prove to me through scientific evidence enough evidence and facts that i can accept as true that a "god" exists then i will. right now there is no such evidence to do so.Science is not rigid its always changing as new evidence comes in .its great to see new discoveries to disprove old ones I have no problem being wrong if the evidence shows this.Its always great to see new ways at looking at things. monotheism or polytheism is not new, same old story. and the gaps that some try to fill are quickly closing.
Well i guess its like the old saying"its easier to convert a scientist in to believing in god then a religious person not to"

This type of debate can go on and on ..but thats what makes it fun.makes you think a lot harder about things also.
Also now that i have posted here i hope this doesn't effect discussions on cigars in other post and just because some of you may think differently than some other including myself doesn't mean we still cant be friends on the forums.
I look forward to discussing cigars with you all.
Take care
Doug

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Again, I'm not trying to convince you anything about if there is or isn't a 'God', just stating what some people may believe about their 'God' and what would be required if said 'God' did exist... consider it a hypothetical situation. Anyrate, on the following two notes, i think its time to turn this topic into another controversial one::

PS Somebody should start a gay marriage thread ;)

dont push your personal belief system into politics and policies that will effect my life.

... i feel similarly on this topic, anyone else?



PS. DPB... have you read back to Hershey's posts? i think the two of you should get along great.

[DPB]

LOL I have read herseys post im sure he is a nice guy thats all i have to say about that.
As far as gay marriage, who cares.
again does not effect my life.let people do what they want just not my cup of tea.I like females, enough said.
Peace
Doug