Evolution...not really political, maybe controversial

[DPB]

living outside space and time? Now your inventing realms.
If a god exists then the universe if it was created would look like a different universe then we live in now.To try to prove or disprove god is like trying to prove or disprove that a invisible purple dinosaur exists, But again it doesn't mean that its true.But its not up to me to try to disprove its existence but up to whoever to prove its existence.without saying it cant be done that to me is a cop out and just to easy because something cant be explained just don't jump in and use fairy tales to try and explain it. Plus it still leaves a wide door open of if god created everything what created god? that would be a logical progression or regression.
Doug

[DPB]

Science and religion can not coexist together either one is right and the other is wrong .Plus depending in which religion you grew up with gives a different story on how everything started.
If you were born into a christian family then you belive that story if it was hindu then its that story ,jewish etc..
What makes science story unique is that its story has the evidence to tell its story.
Either god (which ever god you believe in)started everything and again what started that god,or the universe and life as we know it was a slow non random process which took billions of years to happen.the probabilities of that happening are low but yet here we are talking about ,gods story is very improbable do to the lack(or none of) of evidence to show how it created everything.Your right you never want to get into a screaming match with a religous person but using clear rational thought and basic observation you would think would be enough ,there are plenty of books in the bookstore that tells science story,hawkins ,Segan, frans de hall ,richard dawkins ,eo wilson ,einstien etc...all books written in modern language in modern times within the 20th and 21st century using the advancements of technology to explain our and the universes origins.lets keep the thinking in these centuries is all i am saying.
Life did not begin from nothing there is always regress you just need to read up on the information that is public knowledge and is out there,from amino acids and proteins being introduced to nitrites to start a simple life. evolution and natural selection takes off from there as far as life on earth this is the best explanation we have right now with the over abundance of evidence given to prove this. You either except these facts as truths or you dont . my problem is that religion makes one satisfied without truly understanding the world we live in. To say god just did it then what just did god.
Peace to all
Doug
and you are right i was rude not to introduce myself in the proper way but i usually come here just to read up on cigars and saw this thread due to i have a great interest on the subject. And i usually do not like to post on any forum but just felt i wanted to add my 2 cents of thought .So i appologize for jumping in like i did and wont happen again on another subject . But I am Doug from NY and I love cigars padrons i live for....

[DPB]

Mills LOL i do apologize for my poor grammar skills i try to be as articulate as possible but i always sucked with grammar . so just try to bear with it .
Sheeet i am just a cable guy Plus when i wrote that first post it was early in the morning and that didnt help either.
Doug

[ReV]

A being that is omnipotent, by its very definition, cannot have a limited existence. What you are saying is that a omnipotent being cannot exist... what i'm saying is that if one did exist, it would most certainly exist outside the limitations of time and space... We aren't discussing the plausibility of a 'God' here anyway, we are discussing evolution... the thing you're missing is that you can scream logic all you want, but some who believes in said God will continue to do so... you wont convince them otherwise, so the next best thing is to at least make them understand that science doesn't contradict religion... which it doesn't. Its really a very simple argument, and weather you believe or not, i would hope a person of science could at least understand what i'm saying here. At some point in the tracing back of evolution, there was nothing, and then, there was something... call it what you will, the big bang, the first day, whatever... the point is, many people on the religious side of things refuse to admit existence could have happened in any other way than what is described in the bible... but there is no reason what was described in the bible couldn't just be short hand for the entire big bang/evolution theory. If you get someone who believes in God to accept the Big bang theory, even if you have to add that God created the big bang to the beginning of the story... is it not a step in the right direction? Even you have to admit that you have to teach people how to read before you teach them the underlying themes in Shakespeare... Anyrate, your argument doesn't seem much more open minded than that of the extreme religious zealots... evidence or not, you're all just basing your argument on what someone else told you, no one knows for sure... and have you noticed yet that i was never arguing with you? my whole initial argument was about the narrow mindedness of an extremist religious argument...

[DPB]

I am basing my argument on what scientific evidence has shown us not what someone told me.We do know for sure what happened up to a point,then it goes into the whole quantum theory of multiverses before the big bang,Everything works out mathematically just we cant comprehend the answer even though it works out on paper .all i am saying god does not.because science does not have the answer now doesnt mean it wont 100 years from now.I am not afraid of not knowing its ok for me,for one day we will know or we wont know and thats ok also.But i will not use 1st century fairy tales in its place.I also agree with you.To try and have a religious person try to understand this you cant go to the last chapter in the book you have to teach them to read first .We only know what information we have been exposed to.growing up in a family that is totally religious of course thats all they will know and it will be hard to try to convince them otherwise until you lay out all the evidence and facts and try to explain slowly.I apologize if it seems like i was arguing with you. i was trying to get my point across.And I understand yours.
I also do not really care what people do in the privacy of their own homes,pray to whoever you want to. Just dont push your personal belief system into politics and policies that will effect my life.and when i say "your" i dont mean you personally just those who wish to do the above. Even though i dont care about what people do in private. religion does effect public policy and that bothers me.
You are correct that this was about evolution and there are plenty of things to discuss on that alone but once religion "creationism" ID or whatever got involved then yes God is brought into this conversation and if some feel god started the whole thing then i will debate that.If evolution will be discussed then lets stick to that and what the evidence shows us.
If you really want to learn more on this there are plenty of books in the bookstore on evolution that can be read just go to the earth science section and have a ball.Not sure which books? www.richarddawkins.net would be a good start to check out.
I am also very open minded. If you can prove to me through scientific evidence enough evidence and facts that i can accept as true that a "god" exists then i will. right now there is no such evidence to do so.Science is not rigid its always changing as new evidence comes in .its great to see new discoveries to disprove old ones I have no problem being wrong if the evidence shows this.Its always great to see new ways at looking at things. monotheism or polytheism is not new, same old story. and the gaps that some try to fill are quickly closing.
Well i guess its like the old saying"its easier to convert a scientist in to believing in god then a religious person not to"

This type of debate can go on and on ..but thats what makes it fun.makes you think a lot harder about things also.
Also now that i have posted here i hope this doesn't effect discussions on cigars in other post and just because some of you may think differently than some other including myself doesn't mean we still cant be friends on the forums.
I look forward to discussing cigars with you all.
Take care
Doug

[ReV]

Again, I'm not trying to convince you anything about if there is or isn't a 'God', just stating what some people may believe about their 'God' and what would be required if said 'God' did exist... consider it a hypothetical situation. Anyrate, on the following two notes, i think its time to turn this topic into another controversial one::

PS Somebody should start a gay marriage thread ;)

dont push your personal belief system into politics and policies that will effect my life.

... i feel similarly on this topic, anyone else?



PS. DPB... have you read back to Hershey's posts? i think the two of you should get along great.

[DPB]

LOL I have read herseys post im sure he is a nice guy thats all i have to say about that.
As far as gay marriage, who cares.
again does not effect my life.let people do what they want just not my cup of tea.I like females, enough said.
Peace
Doug

[HersheyWalker]

DPB, please show some common courtesy and edit your posts with CAPITAL letters and proper spelling and grammer. We are all adults here and although your mental faculties are accustom and comfortable processing 'teen' speak, the rest of us aren't. So once again, post proper.

As an update, I've been spending a lot of time lately studying for a CSET exam I have this saturday, and haven't been able to post in this thread. I'm just letting you all know that I have a lot to say with regard to almost every new post, and I'll be on it in a two weeks or so.

In the mean time, carry on

[ReV]

looking foward to it buddy, i think i'll step to the side and let you and DPB have an all out yelling match since it appears the two of you are on opposite ends of this debate and i find myself somewhere in the middle...

[DPB]

Nice sarcasm.product of the weak mind
good luck with the cset exam just hope you dont push your pseudo science on your students.
Sorry if i didnt have my spell check on.and i am not the best writer pardon me for that.
As far as teen speak lol thats a good one considering how religion treats everyone like scared little children,and sometimes you have to try to speak simple for simple people.dont take this as an insult just the way it seems. As far as my grammar yup its not the best but you still can read it cant you?
again sorry if you cant or if its to difficult to read then i apologize.
This is such a tired drawn out thread . been beaten like a dead horse here and all over the net if you still wish to engage then go ahead,if you want answers read a book but please read a book thats offers science not pseudo-science.
oh look no capitalizing. I said nothing bad about you personally yet,but you attack me . talk about acting like an adult
ah yes please o wise one tell us in your "god" speak how the wonderful yahweh or whatever god ,deity, goddess, supernatural omnimpotent being , creator ,intelligent designer(because everything is so intelligently designed)who made the universe and the earth all for us .because he cares ,cares so much the we should worship and pray to it.
And then i can tell you about bigfoot , loch ness monsters and unicorns and fairies.but now you will probably tell us some pseudo science on how science is wrong and your science is right with out any evidence to prove so .. so here we go ..enjoy.Sounds like from your previous posts that you have never read any of the books that argue against your position.
I will not continue on this its just not worth it to me.i did say in the beginning i was a lurker on this forum just to check out cigars i did decide to post on this thread because it is a subject i enjoy, but i will not get into a screaming match with someone who will never change his or her mind.So i will go back to lurking here or maybe not.I know you will respond to my sarcasm with more sarcasm.I will read it as i know who it is coming from and take it as such. i apologize that some of you couldnt see where i was coming from but thats ok .I will work on my writing skills and practice.try to be more economic in my points.I will say it again there are plenty of knowledge out there written by very well qualified people on evolution be it biology or cosmology.Either at the library or the book store. like i posted before www.richarddawkins.net is a great place to start if you dont know who he is look him up or just go to the site.
Take care enjoy
peace
doug
it has become almost a cliche to remark that nobody boasts of ignorance of literature,but it is socially acceptable to boast ignorance of science

[DPB]

from herseys last post "I'll be on it in a two weeks or so."
Talk about proper grammar?