Middle east outcome

[Kenyth]

Suppressing protestors is nothing new. It's been happening as long as I can remember. Protestors have the habit of stabbing themselves in the foot to get attention. I don't think peaceful protesting equates to being a royal pain in the ass or a major disruption at an event. Many protestors will take things too far, given the opportunity. The local officials don't particularly like being embarrassed by disruptive behavior when the big guys come to visit. They see it as a reflection on themselves and their ability to provide for the VIP visit. A disruptive occurance, such as a wayward egg or tomato for instance, will make sure visiting dignitaries will avoid their areas for a long time to come. This leads to a little overzealousness with the local law enforcement. It also leads to taking advantage of the situation to squelch the protestors exposure by the VIP's people.

[ggiese]

Suppressing protestors is nothing new. It's been happening as long as I can remember. Protestors have the habit of stabbing themselves in the foot to get attention. I don't think peaceful protesting equates to being a royal pain in the ass or a major disruption at an event. Many protestors will take things too far, given the opportunity. The local officials don't particularly like being embarrassed by disruptive behavior when the big guys come to visit. They see it as a reflection on themselves and their ability to provide for the VIP visit. A disruptive occurance, such as a wayward egg or tomato for instance, will make sure visiting dignitaries will avoid their areas for a long time to come. This leads to a little overzealousness with the local law enforcement. It also leads to taking advantage of the situation to squelch the protestors exposure by the VIP's people.

...yep - and then you get the knuckleheads who WANT to be arrested - they go out of their way to do it. It gets main stream press, advances their argument (that our country is becoming a nazi Germany), and they get to do the wounded puppy whine (exactly like that one first person press story DVM quoted)...

[Kenyth]

...yep - and then you get the knuckleheads who WANT to be arrested - they go out of their way to do it. It gets main stream press, advances their argument (that our country is becoming a nazi Germany), and they get to do the wounded puppy whine (exactly like that one first person press story DVM quoted)...

Idiots make it hard on everyone. Truly reasonable and peaceful protestors get treated pretty badly because of groups like the church that was picketing soldiers funerals.

Let's not treat the other side as angels without an agenda either though. If making a molehill into a mountain and supressing a few rights will keep the protestors (and bad press) out of sight, they'll jump on it in a heartbeat! Local officials will also protect their interests without regard for the right to peacefully protest. That's what happens when you have a confict of interests with the big boy's though.

[SmokinDVM]

Idiots make it hard on everyone. Truly reasonable and peaceful protestors get treated pretty badly because of groups like the church that was picketing soldiers funerals.

Let's not treat the other side as angels without an agenda either though. If making a molehill into a mountain and supressing a few rights will keep the protestors (and bad press) out of sight, they'll jump on it in a heartbeat! Local officials will also protect their interests without regard for the right to peacefully protest. That's what happens when you have a confict of interests with the big boy's though.

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

[ggiese]

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

So you're condoning someone acting like an ass - TRYING to get arrested - so they can prove the point that they got arrested for carrying out their "civil rights"???

Again - while it seems logical that anywhere on American soil someone can say what they want, when they want and how they want based upon the US consitution - even the Supreme Court disagrees with you... They've had numerous rulings over our history placing limits on what free speech really is. But there are those who are very willing will test those limits for the purpose of furthering their argument that we are not a free society...

But then, Barry - do you really wanna see what free speech is not or what a "nazi" government REALLY is? Have one of your pals heckle the administration during a speech in Iran - or Syria - or North Korea - or Iraq (before we engaged them). It won't take much to draw a response - far less than it would if you tried it here... And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you. I assure you - there would be no desire to ever heckle again (if you managed to survive the "discussion" they had with you about "heckling")...

No comparison, my friend - NO COMPARISON...

Free does not mean without responsibility...

[WhiteWidow]

And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you.

This is a good point. While the US may have its problems, I'm sure not moving anywhere else, and I don't see the people who think it is so bad here moving either.

I'd go to Australia though, I'll bet that place is pretty cool. Vancouver would be ok except for all the Vietnimese turf wars and what not.

[SmokinDVM]

So you're condoning someone acting like an ass - TRYING to get arrested - so they can prove the point that they got arrested for carrying out their "civil rights"???

Again - while it seems logical that anywhere on American soil someone can say what they want, when they want and how they want based upon the US consitution - even the Supreme Court disagrees with you... They've had numerous rulings over our history placing limits on what free speech really is. But there are those who are very willing will test those limits for the purpose of furthering their argument that we are not a free society...

But then, Barry - do you really wanna see what free speech is not or what a "nazi" government REALLY is? Have one of your pals heckle the administration during a speech in Iran - or Syria - or North Korea - or Iraq (before we engaged them). It won't take much to draw a response - far less than it would if you tried it here... And our response to the situation would be pale in comparison to what those countries would do to you when they get their hands on you. I assure you - there would be no desire to ever heckle again (if you managed to survive the "discussion" they had with you about "heckling")...

No comparison, my friend - NO COMPARISON...

Free does not mean without responsibility...

Actually, my response was directed at the quoted statement by Kenyth. Buuuut, as long as you've brought it up...

What you seem to be saying is that it's OK for those overzealous LEO's to crack a few heads, or strip search, or violate some CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, of people who are doing NO PHYSICAL harm, MENTAL harm, nor otherwise threatening behavior, just because they would get much worse in another country.
Last time I checked, WE ARE NOT IN ONE OF THOSE COUNTRIES! And in my opinion, an opinion most neocons obviously don't agree with, I'd rather they not continue eroding away our rights, which only leads to our Country being more like those other countries.

Dumbya said it himself when he blurted out, "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier -
just so long as I'm the dictator." I think that pretty much says it all.

You're right, free doesn't mean without responsibility. Kinda like the responsibility of the elected officials not to abuse their office.

[ggiese]

Nope - not condoning LEO's from cracking heads, but I'm also not really fond of people like the Westboro Baptist church that protests soldier's funerals or the gay community (even though I may SOMEWHAT agree with some of their message - their way of presenting it turns me off). And to point at those people and say they have the freedom of speech... Or the American Nazi Party that wants to protest in the midst of a largely jewish community... That's absolutely, positively looking for trouble...

Just like those liberals who are TRYING to get arrested by pushing the limits to the absolute outside of the bounds of reasonableness. Forming a human pyramid of naked men, with the exception of thong underwear, is WELL outside of the bounds of reasonableness - I don't care WHO you are. I don't want to look at that nonsense - and are you suggesting that I am forced to in the name of "freedom of speech"?

In the current state of heigthened fears over terrorist attacks on our infrastructure - I believe there has to be a sense of reasonableness with protesting high value "targets" (politicians). If you don't understand that - I'm not EVER going to make you understand...

We're at a different point in history. Back in the 40's, 50's and even into the 60's, Americans wouldn't EVEN THINK of acting like some are acting now. It wasn't proper respect for the office or for the institution that is the US. That seems to have been thrown out the window in favor of "freedom of speech". So it seems the pendulum is swinging MORE in the favor of freedoms that weren't even dreamed of 20, 30 or 40 years ago.... Do you also condone the use of an American flag as a door mat - or burned because people disagree with the policies of the government (which, by the way, was a "protected" expression of free speech)???

And you complain the freedom of speech is being taken away??? Seems to me it's more prevalant than it was in the past...

[Kenyth]

So you're saying it's OK to violate peoples RIGHTS, just so some dumbass "vip" doesn't get embarrassed? Now that is disconcerting.

I didn't say it was OK. I said that's the way it IS. If you think it's bad now, read up on how things were done as little as a hundred years ago. The world can be a very unfair place. Just because someone cries foul, it doesn't mean everything changes. You'll have to fight it in court. That takes a lot of money and dedication. Not a job for one man. That's why it's best to organize or join a respected interest group and volunteer money and time there. You probably won't get to wear thongs in public as much, but you just might get legal representation and a voice that can really make a difference. Everyone has their own interests and tries to protect them as best they can, so it won't be easy. Pick your battles wisely and don't expend yourself on a fools errand.

Segregating picketers based on their message is wrong, but making an obscene spectacle in public is also wrong. Too often protests turn into embarassments and sometimes riots. Butting heads with the local authorities won't win you much sympathy. Righteousness generally isn't taken much into consideration when dealing with troublemakerswho incite disturbances.