Go, Willie!

[cls515]

As for limb removal for punishment? I think that will increase the need for our SSD budget and give the punished more opportunity to be unemployed and collecting.

Then just make an amendment. Drug related charges nullify the rights.

[cigar no baka]

The simple fact that convinces me we should not punish the weed-heads out there is this: you cannot force the US populace to stop doing something with legislation and punishment, if they really, REALLY want to do it, and a large percentage of the populace is doing. The result of attempting to legislate against something like this is you criminalize their behavior and have to punish a huge number of Americans with all the costs, financial and other, involved.

I think a very large minority of Americans either have used weed, or do use it regularly. Even if it is only 5% who use it regularly, they continue to use it regularly in spite of it being illegal iwth consequences. For arguments sake let's say it is only 2% - that is six million Americans you have turned into criminals who you now have to punish if you catch them.

The reason that legislating against other kinds of behavior workwell - like theft, murder, rape, robbery, etc - is that the vast majority of us don't want to do those things and consider them reprehensible. They are an integral part of our social contract. I think the number of people using weed vastly outnumbers all other criminals combined, so we have to ask - is it worth all the resources we commit to the war on drugs such as weed?

I don't put hard drugs into the same category as weed. I think we're losing the war on weed, and will always lose it, we'll just keep pissing money away and millions, if not tens of millions of Americans, will continue to use it and take the risks involved.

[BigMacFU]

Baka, I don't buy that logic because it cannot be applied universally. Murder/genocide was built into the social contract of the Weimer Republic as reprehensible. Didn't matter though did it, and Hitler legalized it. The majority of people were cool with it. So, it was right for Hitler to legalize it, and anytime the majority of people start committing a specific crime, we should legalize it.

My guess is that more people cheat on their taxes than smoke weed. So, by your logic, let's legalize cheating on taxes. More people steal in this country than smoke weed, so let's legalize it.

If you don't believe the number of people who steal I cite a few things: 1) Ask any internal auditor at a company about legitimate employee expenses , 2) ask any lawyer whether or not a 15 minute phone call counts as a billable hour, 3) ask how many people have tried the grapes at a grocery store before buying the bag. Yet, no one really considers these things "bad," they do them willingly, knowingly, and many even smile.

Edit: Forgot to add Drunk Driving, Speeding, Jay-Walking, etc...

Finally, if that's not enough to convince you, I give you slavery!!! The majority of people in our country considered it perfectly fine, they owned slaves willingly and knowingly. Yet, while the majority of people in this country still owned slaves, the federal government sought to make it illegal. Now, the civil war was the result of many things, but according to your logic, slavery should have stayed legal.

The question shouldn't be, how many are doing it that grants its legality, it should be, what kind of effect does this have on our society? And ask anyone in general if they're pro-doping away all of our problems, be they through "legal" pharma-coms or illegal drugs?

As I wrote earlier, I'm against all types of doping, be they "legal" or illegal. Unless there really is some crazy chemical imbalance in your body that cannot be regulated with supplements, and your kid really is overactive (and not because you've used the TV to babysit them up till this point, thus teaching them no attention span and giving them no physical energy outlet), then the govt. should prevent it all. Personally, I'd like to see the government go after the pharma-coms more than the do mary jane pushers.

[cigar no baka]

Baka, I don't buy that logic because it cannot be applied universally. Murder/genocide was built into the social contract of the Weimer Republic as reprehensible. Didn't matter though did it, and Hitler legalized it. The majority of people were cool with it. So, it was right for Hitler to legalize it, and anytime the majority of people start committing a specific crime, we should legalize it.

My guess is that more people cheat on their taxes than smoke weed. So, by your logic, let's legalize cheating on taxes. More people steal in this country than smoke weed, so let's legalize it.

If you don't believe the number of people who steal I cite a few things: 1) Ask any internal auditor at a company about legitimate employee expenses , 2) ask any lawyer whether or not a 15 minute phone call counts as a billable hour, 3) ask how many people have tried the grapes at a grocery store before buying the bag. Yet, no one really considers these things "bad," they do them willingly, knowingly, and many even smile.

Edit: Forgot to add Drunk Driving, Speeding, Jay-Walking, etc...

Finally, if that's not enough to convince you, I give you slavery!!! The majority of people in our country considered it perfectly fine, they owned slaves willingly and knowingly. Yet, while the majority of people in this country still owned slaves, the federal government sought to make it illegal. Now, the civil war was the result of many things, but according to your logic, slavery should have stayed legal.

The question shouldn't be, how many are doing it that grants its legality, it should be, what kind of effect does this have on our society? And ask anyone in general if they're pro-doping away all of our problems, be they through "legal" pharma-coms or illegal drugs?

As I wrote earlier, I'm against all types of doping, be they "legal" or illegal. Unless there really is some crazy chemical imbalance in your body that cannot be regulated with supplements, and your kid really is overactive (and not because you've used the TV to babysit them up till this point, thus teaching them no attention span and giving them no physical energy outlet), then the govt. should prevent it all. Personally, I'd like to see the government go after the pharma-coms more than the do mary jane pushers.

I see your point, but there are victims in all of the crimes you listed above. Where are the victims in drug use, specifically weed? I can take mind altering substances such as alcohol and damage myself, as long as I cause no damage to others, correct? So why can I not do so with other mind-altering substances? The benefit of banning such behavior far, far outweighs the costs. And remember, I am only speaking about weed, which is far less insidious and not addictive like drugs such as coke, heroin, etc.

[cinda]

A law is only as good as the people who uphold it.

A more common quote: A lock door keeps honest people out....

[SmokinDVM]

What we have here is some interesting hypocritical opinions.
Everyone wants to keep their drug of choice (nicotine, alcohol, caffeine, whatever) legal, while punishing everyone else for using their drug of choice.

[BigMacFU]

As for drug use not hurting anyone, that's arguable, even with weed. But, we don't even need to go that far. The stealing doesn't technically hurt anyone, jay walking doesn't hurt anyone, speeding doesn't hurt anyone. It's only when these things go wrong that they hurt people. So, just like weed, these things aren't bad because in most cases they hurt no one. If every time somebody sped or jay walked they'd be hurt, we'd all be dead in this country.

As for DVM's point, he has a point, we all want certain "drugs" to stay legal while others do not (I don't think alcohol should be illegal, but believe pot should, caffeine as an additive too probably, most pharma-com "well-being" drugs, etc...). Is this hypocritical? Maybe, if we all end up being wrong about this issue and come to find it is a black and white issue, not a grey issue, then it is hypocritical. If it is a grey issue though, it's not hypocritical, it's just trying to find our best way through the fog.

As for Wise's idea that punishing and fines haven't worked yet, then we should never make anything illegal, in fact, eliminate any idea of punishment or social/civic justice because there has not been one society to ever be completely free of crime. Therefore, no punishment works, so why punish anything at all.

I'm not saying the solution to this problem is easy, I don't think we're all going to agree. I just want to make sure that whatever side you fall on, you're logically valid even within your own premises.