National Guard-Which Border?

[SmokinDVM]

If you think simply being smarter than the Indian job shops is going to save you from outsourcing, no offense bruddah, but you have not been paying attention. I have had years of experience with everything from my ISP to game support, to software companies who have outsourced to India. I can tell you now, a clump if dirt is smarter than those clowns and it doesn't matter to corporate America. It's all about big paychecks for upper management and board members and huge golden parachutes. Consumers and employees can go rot.

And now we are losing manual labor to illegals. Not everybody can be a doctor or lawyer. Not everybody wants to be a doctor or lawyer. They should still be able to raise a family and have a home and pay their bills. I know many hard working people in the contruction and landscaping industry who have lost their jobs and their buinesses because they can't compete with companies that hire nothing but illegals and pay them $3 or $4 an hour off the books. That's not arrogance or laziness.

That's exactly it.

The factories that move out of the Country, and other jobs that get outsourced, are not about lower prices for the consumer, or even competitive quality, it's about more money for the corporate pigs. That meatpacker, who takes a huge pay-cut, has to pay the same or higher price for the meat.
Another example, when I was growing up in the Midwest, for a summer job I would start out rouging corn, followed by de-tasseling corn, and then walking the beans. For about 6-8wks in the summer a kid could make a tidy bit of spending cash, at $6-$8 an hour, and keep out of trouble to boot. Now, they contract out all of the field work to illegals that make less than $2/hour per person. Did you see the livestock feed prices go down? How about the price of a can of corn at the grocery store? Not a chance. Do you think the small farmer is pocketing these huge profits? Hell NO, most of them have been run out of business by the big corporate owned farms.
This isn't about Americans being entitled to anything more than thier government doing its job and "promoting the general welfare" of AMERICANS.
When we allow Mexico to get rid of its poorest people by sending them to the US, and not fixing thier own problems, we cause a shrinkage of our middle class, and turn the US into a bigger form of Mexico. We need to promote a large middle class, the average joe, in this Country, not let the corporate pigs get fat on the destruction of them.

[SuperChuck]

Another example, when I was growing up in the Midwest, for a summer job I would start out rouging corn, followed by de-tasseling corn, and then walking the beans. For about 6-8wks in the summer a kid could make a tidy bit of spending cash, at $6-$8 an hour, and keep out of trouble to boot. Now, they contract out all of the field work to illegals that make less than $2/hour per person.
...
This isn't about Americans being entitled to anything more than thier government doing its job and "promoting the general welfare" of AMERICANS.

How is this not a feeling of entitlement?

The fact of the matter is someone will do that work for $2/hour. But we should pay this kid $6-8 because he's an American? Is that kid producing 3-4 times the product per hour?

Sounds a little like Sony whining about their $600 price point for the PS3. Microscum set the bar at $400. No amount of whining is going to convince me to go out and spend MORE money on a PS3.

[cigar no baka]

How is this not a feeling of entitlement?

The fact of the matter is someone will do that work for $2/hour. But we should pay this kid $6-8 because he's an American? Is that kid producing 3-4 times the product per hour?

Sounds a little like Sony whining about their $600 price point for the PS3. Microscum set the bar at $400. No amount of whining is going to convince me to go out and spend MORE money on a PS3.

It's not a sense of entitlement. If they can find legal immigrants or citizens willing to do that kind of work for $2 per hour, fine. But when they hire illegal immigrants and take advantage of their status to underpay them, naturally that industry will start to give more and more jobs to illegals, thus less living wage jobs for legals/citizens. It's not about entitlement, it's about national soverignty and cultural cohesiveness. Illegal immigration on the scale it is going on right now is bad for us economically and culturally.

[SuperChuck]

It's not a sense of entitlement. If they can find legal immigrants or citizens willing to do that kind of work for $2 per hour, fine. But when they hire illegal immigrants and take advantage of their status to underpay them, naturally that industry will start to give more and more jobs to illegals, thus less living wage jobs for legals/citizens. It's not about entitlement, it's about national soverignty and cultural cohesiveness. Illegal immigration on the scale it is going on right now is bad for us economically and culturally.

So if the President has his way and grants amnesty to the illegal immigrants and they become legal workers, something is going to change? Pedro is suddenly going to demand minimum wage and health benefits?

When legal immigration was wide open, we didn't have any economic problems. I think the real problem is we don't want to compete. I see that a lot with foreign trade, as well. In order to boost domestic growth, we tax the hell out of imports. Can't compete with Japanese cars? Tax the hell out of them!

[SmokinDVM]

So if the President has his way and grants amnesty to the illegal immigrants and they become legal workers, something is going to change? Pedro is suddenly going to demand minimum wage and health benefits?

When legal immigration was wide open, we didn't have any economic problems. I think the real problem is we don't want to compete. I see that a lot with foreign trade, as well. In order to boost domestic growth, we tax the hell out of imports. Can't compete with Japanese cars? Tax the hell out of them!

Probably not Pedro, but Pedro Jr. will.
BTW, when exactly was legal immigration "wide open"? IIRC, there has always been some regulation of immigrants. Granted, there were times when regulations were much more lax, but never non-existant.

The Japanese auto industry is a poor example. First, they pay their workers shitty wages to work long hours and be satisfied living in an apartment, that they buy like a condo, with 10 other members of their family, and the apartment costs them so much money that they make payments through several generations of their family.
Second, they introduce low quality cars at low prices only to jack up the cost later. Those shitty Japanese cars now cost as much, if not more than, American cars. They tricked stupid Americans into buying a throw away car because it's not reasonable to fix them. People used to be able to buy a car, and keep it for 20+ years. Now they have to buy a new one every 2-4 years.

The main question people have to ask themselves is this; Do we want to be LIKE other Countries, or BETTER than other Countries? I know what my answer is.

[SuperChuck]

Those shitty Japanese cars now cost as much, if not more than, American cars. They tricked stupid Americans into buying a throw away car because it's not reasonable to fix them. People used to be able to buy a car, and keep it for 20+ years. Now they have to buy a new one every 2-4 years.

Actually, I had a Toyota Corolla with 300,000 miles on it before it busted a head gasket. It's rare to find an American car with more than 100,000 miles on it these days.

These days, Japanese cars are expensive for two reasons. They are taxed MUCH more than their American counterparts. And they have better build quality. I remember when Toyota was the new guy on the block; now Toyota has a bigger Formula 1 budget than Ferrari. In a few years, we won't be talking about Ferrari, Renault, and McLaren, we'll be talking about Toyota and Honda. Until the Chinese get involved.

In order to be better than other countries, we must COMPETE. That means we have to compete with the Mexicans, who will work harder for less, and the Indians, who work harder and are occasionally smarter, the Japanese, who are smarter and work harder, and the Chinese, who are going to completely blow us out of the water.

Whining because Pedro is coming over and taking away all the ditch-digging jobs isn't any way to compete and will eventually lead to economic decay. Personally, I want Pedro to come over and dig some ditches and pay taxes and shop at Best Buy (even if he is buying Sony and Panasonic) and bring his family over and buy a house in my neighborhood. It used to be a neighborhood of greenhorns, we could use a couple wetbacks.

[SmokinDVM]

. It's rare to find an American car with more than 100,000 miles on it these days.

That's because Pedros making them for minimum wage. You really usually do get what you pay for. And, it's funny how rare it is to own an American car with over 100,000 miles on it when, within the last 25 years I've owned 7 of them, and I've got 2 more that are getting close.

BTW, you blow a head gasket, you crack a head.

You know what, you're right. Let's become a 3rd World Country, so we can compete with other 3rd World Countries on their level. Because that's what you're really talking about. Let's destroy the middle class in America so we can have a small ruling rich elite class and a huge poor slave class just like Mexico.

And Pedro, he doesn't shop at Best Buy. He sends his money back to Mexico to support familia still there. I've posted this stat. before, but here it comes again...Mexico's second biggest income source is US Dollars being sent there by illegals in the US.

[Shagaroo]

Whining because Pedro is coming over and taking away all the ditch-digging jobs isn't any way to compete and will eventually lead to economic decay. Personally, I want Pedro to come over and dig some ditches and pay taxes and shop at Best Buy (even if he is buying Sony and Panasonic) and bring his family over and buy a house in my neighborhood. It used to be a neighborhood of greenhorns, we could use a couple wetbacks.

Pedro isn't paying taxes, except sales tax. He is paid off the books, does what little shopping he does at Walmart, and sends the rest back to Mexico, and gets a free ride off tax payer dollars when he gets sick or hurt. And be careful what you wish for as far as them moving next door to you. More often than not it's 20 to 30 males living in one house and I can assure you they don't care what the house or the yard looks like and they will more than happy to yell obscenities at your significant other and daughter if you have either.

I live in one of the areas with the fastest growing hispanic populations, legal and illegal. It isn't paradise, I can tell you that. They managed to prompt the toughest laws to be past to deal with them.

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legislati...Immigrants.htm

[ggiese]

Probably not Pedro, but Pedro Jr. will.
BTW, when exactly was legal immigration "wide open"? IIRC, there has always been some regulation of immigrants. Granted, there were times when regulations were much more lax, but never non-existant.

The Japanese auto industry is a poor example. First, they pay their workers shitty wages to work long hours and be satisfied living in an apartment, that they buy like a condo, with 10 other members of their family, and the apartment costs them so much money that they make payments through several generations of their family.
Second, they introduce low quality cars at low prices only to jack up the cost later. Those shitty Japanese cars now cost as much, if not more than, American cars. They tricked stupid Americans into buying a throw away car because it's not reasonable to fix them. People used to be able to buy a car, and keep it for 20+ years. Now they have to buy a new one every 2-4 years.

The main question people have to ask themselves is this; Do we want to be LIKE other Countries, or BETTER than other Countries? I know what my answer is.

I just bought my first Japanese car, after spending my life tuned to the voices in my head from being a child and hearing that the Japanese were stealing jobs from the US workers. My father owned a Datsun B210 way back, and it was a pile of crap... But my Infiniti (aka Nissan, aka Datsun) is another story - that car is an incredibly well built car. And they have now a history of reliablity which cannot be matched by American cars. I'm sorry I'd not looked at them before.

This country has an arrogance problem. We are by far damn near the richest per capita country in the world (compare our size to the other richer countries and WE ARE the richest per capita country in the world by size). Go to just about any other country in the world and the difference is stark (i.e. - visit Mexico, or Jamaica some time...)

Our youth think it's beneath them to shine shoes, or wait tables, or cut grass, or meat pack... Sorry, but it's true. And it's a societal problem. My son is equally affected as the others - he works, but he could work harder and chooses not to. There's no reason to, in his mind - he has what he wants - and plenty of it. If not, he takes a job to make the necessary money, and then quickly loses interest in working. My 23 yr old daughter feels the government owes her something - she doesn't want to work for $8-10 an hour and lose her benefits... Pathetic...

My grandmother, an immigrant from Italy, came here LEGALLY at age 16, not knowing the language (but she worked hard to learn it in order to communicate). She took whatever work she could get (the best was working in the kitchen at a Chinese restaurant). But - she was motivated to do better than just working in a kitchen - she worked hard for every penny she earned. And died a wealthy woman. She was scrubbing floors in a nursing home weeks before her death because she felt she should, not because she needed to.

Hey - if you want to make $3/hour - more power to you. There are plenty of those jobs out there. That's why the Mexican's are flooding over the border - because there are NOT $3.00/hr. jobs in Mexico. That is theoretically supposed to be the end result of NAFTA.

My grandmother motivated me be saying, "the world needs ditch diggers". And I tell my kids "Mediocre is easy. You don't have to do much to be mediocre". Someday, maybe, it may sink in...

[ggiese]

Just found this..

[cigar no baka]

So if the President has his way and grants amnesty to the illegal immigrants and they become legal workers, something is going to change? Pedro is suddenly going to demand minimum wage and health benefits?

When legal immigration was wide open, we didn't have any economic problems. I think the real problem is we don't want to compete. I see that a lot with foreign trade, as well. In order to boost domestic growth, we tax the hell out of imports. Can't compete with Japanese cars? Tax the hell out of them!

The President will not get his way, there is no way we're going to grant another amnesty or anything that smells like it because the 1986 amnesty solved nothing at all and we're not stupid enough to go that route again.

[Shagaroo]

most of them have been run out of business by the big corporate owned farms.

Or regulated out of business by the government so as to not upset corporate farms and competing nations... But I guess that's a bit off topic here....