National Guard-Which Border?

[SmokinDVM]

If you think simply being smarter than the Indian job shops is going to save you from outsourcing, no offense bruddah, but you have not been paying attention. I have had years of experience with everything from my ISP to game support, to software companies who have outsourced to India. I can tell you now, a clump if dirt is smarter than those clowns and it doesn't matter to corporate America. It's all about big paychecks for upper management and board members and huge golden parachutes. Consumers and employees can go rot.

And now we are losing manual labor to illegals. Not everybody can be a doctor or lawyer. Not everybody wants to be a doctor or lawyer. They should still be able to raise a family and have a home and pay their bills. I know many hard working people in the contruction and landscaping industry who have lost their jobs and their buinesses because they can't compete with companies that hire nothing but illegals and pay them $3 or $4 an hour off the books. That's not arrogance or laziness.

That's exactly it.

The factories that move out of the Country, and other jobs that get outsourced, are not about lower prices for the consumer, or even competitive quality, it's about more money for the corporate pigs. That meatpacker, who takes a huge pay-cut, has to pay the same or higher price for the meat.
Another example, when I was growing up in the Midwest, for a summer job I would start out rouging corn, followed by de-tasseling corn, and then walking the beans. For about 6-8wks in the summer a kid could make a tidy bit of spending cash, at $6-$8 an hour, and keep out of trouble to boot. Now, they contract out all of the field work to illegals that make less than $2/hour per person. Did you see the livestock feed prices go down? How about the price of a can of corn at the grocery store? Not a chance. Do you think the small farmer is pocketing these huge profits? Hell NO, most of them have been run out of business by the big corporate owned farms.
This isn't about Americans being entitled to anything more than thier government doing its job and "promoting the general welfare" of AMERICANS.
When we allow Mexico to get rid of its poorest people by sending them to the US, and not fixing thier own problems, we cause a shrinkage of our middle class, and turn the US into a bigger form of Mexico. We need to promote a large middle class, the average joe, in this Country, not let the corporate pigs get fat on the destruction of them.

[SuperChuck]

Another example, when I was growing up in the Midwest, for a summer job I would start out rouging corn, followed by de-tasseling corn, and then walking the beans. For about 6-8wks in the summer a kid could make a tidy bit of spending cash, at $6-$8 an hour, and keep out of trouble to boot. Now, they contract out all of the field work to illegals that make less than $2/hour per person.
...
This isn't about Americans being entitled to anything more than thier government doing its job and "promoting the general welfare" of AMERICANS.

How is this not a feeling of entitlement?

The fact of the matter is someone will do that work for $2/hour. But we should pay this kid $6-8 because he's an American? Is that kid producing 3-4 times the product per hour?

Sounds a little like Sony whining about their $600 price point for the PS3. Microscum set the bar at $400. No amount of whining is going to convince me to go out and spend MORE money on a PS3.

[Shagaroo]

Would it be any different if these were legal immigrants?

Yes. Citizens, whether born here or not, are not as willing to work for nothing, be taken advantage of, and hide from any government official on their own accord allowing employers to treat them like garbage. I am eyeball deep in illegals, and legal hispanics, I deal with it daily. You don't find people who made the effort to get here legally living in a house with 20 other people and working for $3 an hour off the record and letting themselves be used as slave labor.

[Shagaroo]

most of them have been run out of business by the big corporate owned farms.

Or regulated out of business by the government so as to not upset corporate farms and competing nations... But I guess that's a bit off topic here....

[cigar no baka]

How is this not a feeling of entitlement?

The fact of the matter is someone will do that work for $2/hour. But we should pay this kid $6-8 because he's an American? Is that kid producing 3-4 times the product per hour?

Sounds a little like Sony whining about their $600 price point for the PS3. Microscum set the bar at $400. No amount of whining is going to convince me to go out and spend MORE money on a PS3.

It's not a sense of entitlement. If they can find legal immigrants or citizens willing to do that kind of work for $2 per hour, fine. But when they hire illegal immigrants and take advantage of their status to underpay them, naturally that industry will start to give more and more jobs to illegals, thus less living wage jobs for legals/citizens. It's not about entitlement, it's about national soverignty and cultural cohesiveness. Illegal immigration on the scale it is going on right now is bad for us economically and culturally.

[SuperChuck]

It's not a sense of entitlement. If they can find legal immigrants or citizens willing to do that kind of work for $2 per hour, fine. But when they hire illegal immigrants and take advantage of their status to underpay them, naturally that industry will start to give more and more jobs to illegals, thus less living wage jobs for legals/citizens. It's not about entitlement, it's about national soverignty and cultural cohesiveness. Illegal immigration on the scale it is going on right now is bad for us economically and culturally.

So if the President has his way and grants amnesty to the illegal immigrants and they become legal workers, something is going to change? Pedro is suddenly going to demand minimum wage and health benefits?

When legal immigration was wide open, we didn't have any economic problems. I think the real problem is we don't want to compete. I see that a lot with foreign trade, as well. In order to boost domestic growth, we tax the hell out of imports. Can't compete with Japanese cars? Tax the hell out of them!

[SmokinDVM]

So if the President has his way and grants amnesty to the illegal immigrants and they become legal workers, something is going to change? Pedro is suddenly going to demand minimum wage and health benefits?

When legal immigration was wide open, we didn't have any economic problems. I think the real problem is we don't want to compete. I see that a lot with foreign trade, as well. In order to boost domestic growth, we tax the hell out of imports. Can't compete with Japanese cars? Tax the hell out of them!

Probably not Pedro, but Pedro Jr. will.
BTW, when exactly was legal immigration "wide open"? IIRC, there has always been some regulation of immigrants. Granted, there were times when regulations were much more lax, but never non-existant.

The Japanese auto industry is a poor example. First, they pay their workers shitty wages to work long hours and be satisfied living in an apartment, that they buy like a condo, with 10 other members of their family, and the apartment costs them so much money that they make payments through several generations of their family.
Second, they introduce low quality cars at low prices only to jack up the cost later. Those shitty Japanese cars now cost as much, if not more than, American cars. They tricked stupid Americans into buying a throw away car because it's not reasonable to fix them. People used to be able to buy a car, and keep it for 20+ years. Now they have to buy a new one every 2-4 years.

The main question people have to ask themselves is this; Do we want to be LIKE other Countries, or BETTER than other Countries? I know what my answer is.

[SuperChuck]

Those shitty Japanese cars now cost as much, if not more than, American cars. They tricked stupid Americans into buying a throw away car because it's not reasonable to fix them. People used to be able to buy a car, and keep it for 20+ years. Now they have to buy a new one every 2-4 years.

Actually, I had a Toyota Corolla with 300,000 miles on it before it busted a head gasket. It's rare to find an American car with more than 100,000 miles on it these days.

These days, Japanese cars are expensive for two reasons. They are taxed MUCH more than their American counterparts. And they have better build quality. I remember when Toyota was the new guy on the block; now Toyota has a bigger Formula 1 budget than Ferrari. In a few years, we won't be talking about Ferrari, Renault, and McLaren, we'll be talking about Toyota and Honda. Until the Chinese get involved.

In order to be better than other countries, we must COMPETE. That means we have to compete with the Mexicans, who will work harder for less, and the Indians, who work harder and are occasionally smarter, the Japanese, who are smarter and work harder, and the Chinese, who are going to completely blow us out of the water.

Whining because Pedro is coming over and taking away all the ditch-digging jobs isn't any way to compete and will eventually lead to economic decay. Personally, I want Pedro to come over and dig some ditches and pay taxes and shop at Best Buy (even if he is buying Sony and Panasonic) and bring his family over and buy a house in my neighborhood. It used to be a neighborhood of greenhorns, we could use a couple wetbacks.

[SmokinDVM]

. It's rare to find an American car with more than 100,000 miles on it these days.

That's because Pedros making them for minimum wage. You really usually do get what you pay for. And, it's funny how rare it is to own an American car with over 100,000 miles on it when, within the last 25 years I've owned 7 of them, and I've got 2 more that are getting close.

BTW, you blow a head gasket, you crack a head.

You know what, you're right. Let's become a 3rd World Country, so we can compete with other 3rd World Countries on their level. Because that's what you're really talking about. Let's destroy the middle class in America so we can have a small ruling rich elite class and a huge poor slave class just like Mexico.

And Pedro, he doesn't shop at Best Buy. He sends his money back to Mexico to support familia still there. I've posted this stat. before, but here it comes again...Mexico's second biggest income source is US Dollars being sent there by illegals in the US.

[Shagaroo]

Whining because Pedro is coming over and taking away all the ditch-digging jobs isn't any way to compete and will eventually lead to economic decay. Personally, I want Pedro to come over and dig some ditches and pay taxes and shop at Best Buy (even if he is buying Sony and Panasonic) and bring his family over and buy a house in my neighborhood. It used to be a neighborhood of greenhorns, we could use a couple wetbacks.

Pedro isn't paying taxes, except sales tax. He is paid off the books, does what little shopping he does at Walmart, and sends the rest back to Mexico, and gets a free ride off tax payer dollars when he gets sick or hurt. And be careful what you wish for as far as them moving next door to you. More often than not it's 20 to 30 males living in one house and I can assure you they don't care what the house or the yard looks like and they will more than happy to yell obscenities at your significant other and daughter if you have either.

I live in one of the areas with the fastest growing hispanic populations, legal and illegal. It isn't paradise, I can tell you that. They managed to prompt the toughest laws to be past to deal with them.

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legislati...Immigrants.htm

[SuperChuck]

You know what, you're right. Let's become a 3rd World Country, so we can compete with other 3rd World Countries on their level. Because that's what you're really talking about. Let's destroy the middle class in America so we can have a small ruling rich elite class and a huge poor slave class just like Mexico.

Because the rest of the world is 3rd world? Europe, Asia, and the Middle East are absolutely kicking our asses because they are highly competitive regions.
The United States is currently imports more product than it exports. That's a recipe for economic collapse. It has nothing to do with illegal workers coming into the country and taking over our crappy jobs, it's because more competitive foreign companies are offering better products at competitive prices.

Since we were talking about cars, a good example is GM. I drive a GM. GM is slowly putting itself out of business. Their problem boils down to some very simple supply and demand issues. Less and less people want to drive GM cars. More people want to drive German or Japanese makes. However, GM is making cars like there's no tomorrow. They refuse to lay off workers and slow down production and they apparently refuse to improve quality (as I said, I drive a GM).

GM isn't even trying to compete. They're just keeping on keeping on. Hell, the government's going to bail them out, anyway.

And Pedro, he doesn't shop at Best Buy. He sends his money back to Mexico to support familia still there. I've posted this stat. before, but here it comes again...Mexico's second biggest income source is US Dollars being sent there by illegals in the US.

Unfortunately, that's true.

What I'd really like to see is Pedro working here legally, bringing his family over, maybe paying some taxes, and spending the money here. I feel the same way about software outsourcing. Get the Indian programmers stateside and get them to spend their money here.

If you think about it, all we're doing by closing immigration is sending more money out of the country. If GM opens a plant in Mexico for cars sold in the US, that's a net loss for our economy. If GM opens a plant in the US and hires Pedro, there's a better chance of the money staying here, where you want it. Ideally, you want Pedro to build cars here for export. That yields a net gain for our economy.

Unless we learn to be competitive, we may become a third world country within the next ten or so years for one simple reason: China. China has decided they want to be a player and they have the means to do so. They have a billion people, that's more than the US and Europe combined. And since they have communism on their side, the government can concentrate education on whom they choose and make the rest work in factories for next to nothing. They could crush entire markets on a whim. THAT is crazy.

[BigMacFU]

Good points Chuck. But, I can't agree on your GM bash. Of American cars, they're probably the most dependable. The Chrysler corporation puts out crap, with the exception of Dodge Trucks (the best darn trucks out there), Ford stands for Found on Road Dead, and well, that's all the American car companies. Yeah, i'm changing directions of this to a Ford and Chrysler bashing thread

[SmokinDVM]

Because the rest of the world is 3rd world? Europe, Asia, and the Middle East are absolutely kicking our asses because they are highly competitive regions.
The United States is currently imports more product than it exports. That's a recipe for economic collapse. It has nothing to do with illegal workers coming into the country and taking over our crappy jobs, it's because more competitive foreign companies are offering better products at competitive prices.

The rest of the World isn't 3rd World, but the places that US companies have moved their factories to are. And, it's the reason we import more than we export now. It's because the big companies can pay some 8yr old $2/day to make their product, and get tax breaks in the US for doing it. And yes, it is a recipe for collapse. The problem is the government supports the continued raping of Americans in this "I'm rich as shit so fuck the rest of you" style. And it DOES have something to do with illegals coming here and taking over those "crappy" construction, agricultural, and manufacturing jobs, those same jobs that used to provide Americans with reasonable living. And, it's not about more competitive foriegn companies because they produce a better product, it's because they pay their workers $300/year to be their slaves, and we condone that treatment by buying their shit. So what we're really doing is rewarding companies that move out of the US, and foriegn companies, for destroying our middle class in America. But that's OK as long as the corporate pigs, and fat ass politicians, can continue to get richer. Do you realize that the disparity in wages between the average worker in the US and the CEO's in their companies has widened by HUGE margins over the last 15-20 years. It used to be an average of about 10:1, and now is over 300:1. The Middle Class in this Country is what keeps us from being a 3rd World Country. When you ship jobs overseas, and allow millions of illegals to drive down wages for the remaining jobs here, you only speed the collapse of this Country. Ideally you want John Smith building things here for export, and making a reasonable wage at the same time, not illegal Pedro.
Like I said before, FAIR trade, not free trade. We are still the biggest consumers in the World. Companies won't quit selling here just because we charge them if they don't meet certain labor standards, they can't afford to.
As far as China, they won't be able to support their agricultural needs due to their aggressive move away from that and towards manufacturing. They will never even be as successful as the Japanese.

[SuperChuck]

Good points Chuck. But, I can't agree on your GM bash. Of American cars, they're probably the most dependable. The Chrysler corporation puts out crap, with the exception of Dodge Trucks (the best darn trucks out there), Ford stands for Found on Road Dead, and well, that's all the American car companies. Yeah, i'm changing directions of this to a Ford and Chrysler bashing thread

Hehe, I just bought my second GM car (Saturn Ion Redline). They are wicked reliable. I had my old Saturn for 8 years with almost NO problems. My gf bought her Saturn because my old one was so reliable. Now I find out my dad's buying a Vue (and you'd be glad, he's getting rid of his Sebring). But the build quality on most of the GMs is a little suspect. My Redline's a headturner, but the interior build quality has a lot to be desired. You could fit a cat between the dash panels. :)

[cigar no baka]

So if the President has his way and grants amnesty to the illegal immigrants and they become legal workers, something is going to change? Pedro is suddenly going to demand minimum wage and health benefits?

When legal immigration was wide open, we didn't have any economic problems. I think the real problem is we don't want to compete. I see that a lot with foreign trade, as well. In order to boost domestic growth, we tax the hell out of imports. Can't compete with Japanese cars? Tax the hell out of them!

The President will not get his way, there is no way we're going to grant another amnesty or anything that smells like it because the 1986 amnesty solved nothing at all and we're not stupid enough to go that route again.

[ggiese]

Probably not Pedro, but Pedro Jr. will.
BTW, when exactly was legal immigration "wide open"? IIRC, there has always been some regulation of immigrants. Granted, there were times when regulations were much more lax, but never non-existant.

The Japanese auto industry is a poor example. First, they pay their workers shitty wages to work long hours and be satisfied living in an apartment, that they buy like a condo, with 10 other members of their family, and the apartment costs them so much money that they make payments through several generations of their family.
Second, they introduce low quality cars at low prices only to jack up the cost later. Those shitty Japanese cars now cost as much, if not more than, American cars. They tricked stupid Americans into buying a throw away car because it's not reasonable to fix them. People used to be able to buy a car, and keep it for 20+ years. Now they have to buy a new one every 2-4 years.

The main question people have to ask themselves is this; Do we want to be LIKE other Countries, or BETTER than other Countries? I know what my answer is.

I just bought my first Japanese car, after spending my life tuned to the voices in my head from being a child and hearing that the Japanese were stealing jobs from the US workers. My father owned a Datsun B210 way back, and it was a pile of crap... But my Infiniti (aka Nissan, aka Datsun) is another story - that car is an incredibly well built car. And they have now a history of reliablity which cannot be matched by American cars. I'm sorry I'd not looked at them before.

This country has an arrogance problem. We are by far damn near the richest per capita country in the world (compare our size to the other richer countries and WE ARE the richest per capita country in the world by size). Go to just about any other country in the world and the difference is stark (i.e. - visit Mexico, or Jamaica some time...)

Our youth think it's beneath them to shine shoes, or wait tables, or cut grass, or meat pack... Sorry, but it's true. And it's a societal problem. My son is equally affected as the others - he works, but he could work harder and chooses not to. There's no reason to, in his mind - he has what he wants - and plenty of it. If not, he takes a job to make the necessary money, and then quickly loses interest in working. My 23 yr old daughter feels the government owes her something - she doesn't want to work for $8-10 an hour and lose her benefits... Pathetic...

My grandmother, an immigrant from Italy, came here LEGALLY at age 16, not knowing the language (but she worked hard to learn it in order to communicate). She took whatever work she could get (the best was working in the kitchen at a Chinese restaurant). But - she was motivated to do better than just working in a kitchen - she worked hard for every penny she earned. And died a wealthy woman. She was scrubbing floors in a nursing home weeks before her death because she felt she should, not because she needed to.

Hey - if you want to make $3/hour - more power to you. There are plenty of those jobs out there. That's why the Mexican's are flooding over the border - because there are NOT $3.00/hr. jobs in Mexico. That is theoretically supposed to be the end result of NAFTA.

My grandmother motivated me be saying, "the world needs ditch diggers". And I tell my kids "Mediocre is easy. You don't have to do much to be mediocre". Someday, maybe, it may sink in...

[ggiese]

Just found this..

[SmokinDVM]

My Great Grandparents came from Germany and Ireland. My Grandpa worked in the coal mines in Southern Missouri when he was 8. He was heavily involved in organizing labor in the US, and risked his life on many occassion to improve things in this Country for everyone. I saw the scar on the back of his neck, where the bullet, fired by the Police who were on the "company" payroll, was removed.
It makes me sick when people talk so cavalierly about going back to the times that big companies payed shit to people who worked for them for 30yrs, if they lived that long, only to die in the street because they didn't make enough money to save any.

Why don't you ask your Grandparents, or whichever relative it was that emmigrated to the US, exactly what the times were like. Ask them how many people they knew that didn't "make" it. Find out how many people got sick and lost that job they worked at for 15hrs a day, and just disappeared after.

Your ancestors wanted better for you, don't you want better for your children?

We have a lot of problems in this Country. Illegal immigration isn't the worst, but it exacerbates all the others.


That sign is funny, but my wife is legal and still makes a tasty burrito.

[FlowerBasketExpress2005]

Somewhat similar events happened around the 1880s with illegal Chinese immigrants. They forged papers to come over here, but without them our railroad system might have never been built.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/chinex.htm
http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/u...exclusion_act/
http://library.thinkquest.org/20619/Chinese.html

[ggiese]

My Great Grandparents came from Germany and Ireland. My Grandpa worked in the coal mines in Southern Missouri when he was 8. He was heavily involved in organizing labor in the US, and risked his life on many occassion to improve things in this Country for everyone. I saw the scar on the back of his neck, where the bullet, fired by the Police who were on the "company" payroll, was removed.
It makes me sick when people talk so cavalierly about going back to the times that big companies payed shit to people who worked for them for 30yrs, if they lived that long, only to die in the street because they didn't make enough money to save any.

Why don't you ask your Grandparents, or whichever relative it was that emmigrated to the US, exactly what the times were like. Ask them how many people they knew that didn't "make" it. Find out how many people got sick and lost that job they worked at for 15hrs a day, and just disappeared after.

Your ancestors wanted better for you, don't you want better for your children?

We have a lot of problems in this Country. Illegal immigration isn't the worst, but it exacerbates all the others.


That sign is funny, but my wife is legal and still makes a tasty burrito.

...and this is just what kills me about this generation. Our great grandparents and grandparents - and even my parents worked their asses off to grab a piece of the pie. I've worked hard all of my life to grab mine - although I have to admit, I didn't work at heavy construction jobs most of my life like my father did.

And then comes the current generation. It's beneath them to work cutting grass, washing dishes, busing tables, working in a car wash - in general, getting their hands dirty... Why? Because that's what "losers" do. Yet - if I had to provide for my family I'd swim across a river and sneak into a place that would allow me to make a living doing anything if I couldn't provide for my family near my home. That's just what you do for your family, right?

When I was growing up, it was not a bad thing to work in a restaurant - or mow lawns - or clean horse stables. It was a way of making money - I don't care how much it paid, it paid cash... And now those jobs aren't good enough for our youth???

In my view - our kids are lazy because we've provided so well for them. They feel they don't have to work hard because it's there... WTF is wrong with this picture???