Senior Member
Just an observation here. Have you noticed that the mainstream news media has dropped the importance of Iraq since Israel started in on Lebanon. Kind of drives home the fickleness of the news media, doesn't it? I haven't heard word one about Iraq in over a week. Makes you wonder who's driving foreign policy and public opinion.
Snuck back in!
I won't claim to know much about foreign policy, but I've never doubted that the media controls public opinion. Even being able to acknowledge that fact I still find myself getting caught up in whatever the TV wants me to care about today. They've had a lot of practice.Originally Posted by Shelby07
Are You Threatening Me?
It’s not what he can do now, or could have done, to stabilize those areas, he’s already screwed the pooch on this one, but rather what he’s done to further de-stabilize them.
Middle East: All of the terrorist groups in the area have been emboldened by the “blueprint” to a successful campaign against the mighty U.S. Military, that’s being played out in Iraq. This is directly related to the lack of planning, and in fact, dumbya’s refusal to listen to advisors, like Gen. Shinseki et. al, who described exactly the scenario being played out now. This is where other POTUS’s, even Bush 1, knew their limitations. They were able to use diplomacy, and measured military force, to maintain the balance, however tenuous.
North Korea: Crazy as Kim Jong is, even he realizes that, with the U.S. bogged down both militarily and economically in the Middle East, his rope has suddenly loosened considerably. Couple that with the International sentiment towards the U.S. at present, and this admins complete diplomatic inadequacy, and you’ve removed all real fear of any serious reprisals for his actions.
I never said he didn’t stabilize the situations in the Middle East and North Korea, I said he further de-stabilized them. Is that specific enough?
Let me see, where do I start?
How about the use of fear mongoring to gain support and power, and to remove certain Constitutional Rights? The Nazis used fear of the Communists, or alleged terrorist acts by them which were more likely perpetrated by the Nazis themselves, in the late ‘20’s and early ‘30’s to gain control of the German Government, and then began to remove civil rights using the “it’s necessary to provide protection” argument.
Now, replace communist with Al Qeada, and the fear mongering and excuses are all to familiar.
Or, how about how the corporatists in Germany used the extremists, ie. The Nazis, to rise to power? Seems an awful lot like the corporatists in the U.S. using the extremists, ie. The religious right whackos, to gain control of all three branches of the U.S. Government.
Now, do I really think the idiots in charge of the U.S. right now are as bad as the Nazis in Germany? No, not yet. But, if things continue as they are, they could get pretty effing bad. The neocons are all about fear. Fear of terrorists, the fear of god, the fear of gays, and the list could go on and on.
A question for any and all conservatives, neocons, republicans, whatever: Do you really live in such fear that you willingly give up your Rights, as stated in the Constitution, in exchange for whatever little protection you think you might get from their forfeiture?
I ask this because it seems to me that the Founders and Creators of that Constitution, those men who risked their lives to establish this Country as a haven of freedom, lived in a hell of a lot more danger than anyone living in this Country now. If they could possibly view the state things are in now, I believe they would be in utter disgust as to what complete pussies the citizens here have become. “Give me liberty, or give me death”, has been replaced with an irrational fear of the improbable.
The ineptitude and corruption of the present admin, and especially the present POTUS, is glaringly obvious to all who choose to view the facts. If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.
Had enough? Vote Democrat ‘06
Has a 5" Member
If you seriously think you live under a Nazi regime, then you have obviously led a very easy and sheltered life, and probably haven't had to overcome any kind of real challenges in life other than trying to figure out how to not take responsibility for your own actions.
Do you even know what the hell a Nazi is? I dare you to go up to a Holocaust survivor, or a POW survivor and try to explain to them how your life right now is just as bad as their was while they were in Nazi Germany.
You don't have to like this guy, a lot of people don't, But to trivialize all the victims of one of history's greatest horrors by saying you've got it just as bad, is ridiculous. Another good read: "Combine 13," by Clifford Hopewell (my grandfather).
Bush may suck, but he is not a Nazi, and you don't have it that bad.
End of line.
Back Again
Way to go WW...It's good to see a young guy thinking. That sums up the Nazi thing in a nutshell.
As far as Bush making things worse in the Middle East and Korea...The truth is easy to see. Anything Bush might have done is small in what they have done to themselves and the rest of the world. I personally think Bush is doing well in his policy with these thugs.
9-11 was a wakeup call to America and the Western World. The countries that would sponser or condone this act must be made to realize we will not accept their actions. If it takes bugging a few phones or monitoring some bank transactions of people that are associated with terrorists...Well lets do it. Most of these guys are not American citizens and have no Constitutional rights. The Constitution was drafted for American citizens...Not some terrorist group. I don't think the government has any intrest in DVM's or my affairs.
My problem with Bush is his domestic policy. He seems unable to get the lid on problems at home...Gas prices, crime, ect...Something Democrats can't seem to get right either.
If big leg Clinton is all the demos can field this comming election...Well DVM...I won't be voting Democratic. I bet she would try to socialize pet health care.
Whipping Snappers!
Back Off, Buddy, Beirut's My Sister
Found this in the LA Times - funny shiz...
IT IS TIME for Angelenos to take up arms. No, we are not the most likely Hezbollah recruits — so many of us being either Jews or Western imperialists or both — but sometimes history presents no choice. Last month, Los Angeles decided to make Beirut its sister city. In retrospect, this may have been poorly thought out.
But what's done is done. And now we must act. Had we been brother cities, maybe we could let our little brother take a few licks, lose a couple of buildings and a bridge or two, and then give him a lesson about how to protect himself next time. But Beirut is not our brother city. She is our sister city, and when someone picks on your sister, you can't just sit there.
We, it turns out, have a lot of sisters. In fact, Los Angeles has 23 sister cities — more than any other American city. And when your family is that big, some members are going to turn out to be the kind of girls who stay out late, hang out with the wrong guys and get themselves in trouble. I'm not worried about Bordeaux, France; Vancouver, Canada; or Auckland, New Zealand. But I'm keeping an eye on Split, Croatia; Lusaka, Zambia; and Jakarta, Indonesia.
One of our oldest sisters, however, is Eilat. Which is in Israel. That's right, our sisters are fighting each other. And as the only U.S. city with sisters in both Israel and Lebanon, we are the only ones qualified to go over there as peacekeepers and end this thing. This is why Washington has been waiting and doing nothing. This is our job.
Just as the fighting broke out, Los Angeles actually had a small delegation of troops stationed in Beirut to celebrate the new siblinghood: City Council President Eric Garcetti and his girlfriend, Amy Wakeland; Councilman Dennis Zine and Gus Malkoun of the city Bureau of Engineering and his family. Although Garcetti and Zine left before the fighting started, and Wakeland took off on a flight that was in the air when the Beirut airport was bombed, the Malkouns stayed on to fight. Or at least to hide until the airport opens.
We must join them. We have been eager over the years to celebrate with our sisters — listing their names on the walls of City Hall, taking foreign exchange students, that crazy Los Angeles Sister City Festival in September at the La Brea Tar Pits — but we also must be there during the less happy times, such as during precision bombing.
So, for the next month, we need to stop our developing and agenting and illegal immigranting and ship off to the Middle East. Meanwhile, our council will work on scoring Damascus as a sister. We'll have this thing fixed in no time. And then we're going to have a big family meeting and persuade Mom to get her tubes tied.
Whipping Snappers!
Sorry, Barry - but I disagree with just about everything you're saying concerning "issues" in the Middle East. Our current situation has much more to do with what has been done in the PAST (BEFORE Bush) and more to do with the perceptions the muslim world has concerning our meddling in their affairs. They use our association with Israel as the means to prove their point, but they actually despise us on our own merits.
Unfortunately, we've done a fantastic job of feed those flames ourselves. Back in the 50's, 60's, etc. (when Bush was frolicking around in his diapers) we were about setting up puppet governments in many of those countries. We backed them, we funded them, we supported them. Democrats and Republicans equally!!! Whether it was to stop the spread of communism, or to satisfy our growing need for oil, good or bad (at the time) that's what we did. We even backed, supplied and supported Sadam Hussein at one point.
Well - we're paying the price now. So what do you suggest we do? Before you say we should engage in a dialogue with these people - understand - we would have to break all ties with Israel in order to even begin a discussion. And then remove all of our forces from ALL middle eastern countries - allow all of the countries autonomy - let them do as they please... (i.e. develop nuclear weapons, set up theocratic states like the Taliban did in Afghanistan, etc....).
Yep - let's be isolationist in ideology - let's pull all of our factories, businesses and other enterprises out of all of those countries. That's what the terrorists want...
Let's close the borders to travel to those regions I mean, after all, we don't want to piss off the locals by sharing western customs with them (i.e. - woman allowed to walk around with face, hair and legs exposed). That's what the terrorists want...
And after all of that, if you're so naive as to believe that's what it's going to take to gain peace in the middle east - brother, you have your head buried in the sand up to your armpits... The radical muslims want to establish a muslim empire - one that is capable of reaching out and smacking down those that offend them - and that's what you'd be allowing them to do...
Our biggest enemy is our own greed. But we don't view it that way. We see it as the fruits of our hard work. You cannot possibly convince me you are willing to give up all the things the American society has afforded for you - nice cars, houses, air conditioning, plenty of food, nice clothes, EDUCATION, free press, free thinking, free expression of ideas, vacations, sweet smelling perfume/cologne, Nike/Adidas/FUBU tennis shoes, Ray Ban/Maui Jim/Oakley sunglasses, fine cigars, fine wines/scotch/booze, etc., etc., etc. And unless and until you do - and you are on equal footing with these nutballs - we're going to suffer their wrath. You see they - along with a lot of other nutballs in the world - honestly believe you have those things because you exploited them, plundered them, raped them, robbed them, etc. of those things. They honestly believe they will live their paltry existence until such time they are in heaven - with 27 virgins and all of the things we've had all of our life. We are the devil - they are the righteous...
So let's go ahead debate whether those bastard Republican's, and their "big business" agenda, is better/worse than the righteous Democrat's and their "social" agenda (funded by big business) iin curing the world's ills...
Until then - we have no choice but to battle them on their soil - a place where they are coming in droves to confront our well trained/well equipped army. You know - WAR...
Or - I suppose we could always pull our troops and set them up around our country and wait from them to fly more planes into our buildings - or car bomb population centers - or... Well, you know... We are a soft target inside our own borders, after all...
Are You Threatening Me?
I happen to have known several survivors of the Holocaust, and ALL of them would be very nervous right now seeing the ease at which this Countries "citizens" give up their rights, both young punks who don't know better, and old farts who should.
So, before I'll take a lecture about how rough life can be from you, you'd better grow up enough to at least be in long pants.
Daddy put you through school?
If you really think he's doing a good job, well, then you really haven't been paying attention. Nothing anyone else can do about that.
But, it is really disgusting to see so many people willing to give up ANY rights for ANY reason, especially the pack of bullshit lies this bunch of shitstains have concocted.
Ask someone who was in Germany in the late '20's to early '30's, if it was no big deal to give up a few rights, so they could be "safer". It's a slippery slope, and we've already started down it. And how do you really know what interests them? Hell, they arrest people for having anti-dumbya bumper stickers on their cars. What's next? Do you really know?
Whipping Snappers!
Where was this at? I'd not heard of this...
Actually, Clinton was more well known for his making life miserable for his critics than Bush ever has been...
Are You Threatening Me?
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9492566/detail.html
http://www.joplinindependent.com/dis...lins1091290323
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=75151
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable
http://www.pressaction.com/news/webl.../aclu12092004/
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0429-07.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in644005.shtml
http://newsmine.org/archive/security...sh-sticker.txt
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16704
And I could go on all day. Obviously the "mainstream" media, or where you read/watch/listen to the news isn't paying attention either.
Has a 5" Member
Actually I paid for most of my school by working, the rest was paid for by scholarships that I earned. In addition to going to school full time, I was also a Cadet, a full time job in itself. If you want to find facts about how badass the Corps of Cadets at A&M is they won't be hard to find. As for my dad he is 56 years old and getting deployed to Iraq in December. All that giving up rights stuff is BS, about the only thing different in anyone's life now is that is more of a pain in the ass to fly anywhere, which, guess what it should have been anyway. Like sarge said, the only rights they're taking away are those of criminals, who should have none anyway. Let me know when your phone gets tapped. And guess what the reason this place is so badass and you will talk shit about it but not move anywhere else is because we elect our leaders and they can only stay there for 8 years max.
End of line.
Are You Threatening Me?
I won't discuss the "badass" corps of cadets at a&m, as I don't really care. I did my service in the REAL Army.
I don't give a crap about airline security, if that's what you want to call it. I fail to see how taking off my shoes prevents terrorist acts.
How do you, or anyone else, know their phones aren't being tapped? NO ONE IS OVERSEEING THE ILLEGAL ACTIONS OF THIS ADMIN.
Has my, or your, property been searched? How would you know? They don't have to tell you.
The POTUS can only stay for eight years. The rest of the dipshits can stay indefinitely, especially when re-elected by scared ignorant masses.
Back Again
Just curious DVM...What rights have you personally lost? I'm still living my life the way I was before Bush.
I still move around the country feely, I tote my gun around. I voice my opinion without repercussion from the government.
What would we loose if liberals had their way all the time? Checks and balances do work.
One more thing I've noticed about liberals...When they get on the defensive they tend to call names and shout just as you have done to WW. You have no clue as to his what he has gone through in his life. If you can't dazzle em with brillance...Baffle em with bullshit.
WW is obviously pretty intelllegent and studied. He did not taunt you. he showed you respect...Just differed in opinion.
Your attitude is common of liberals. That is the reason I'll never understand em.
I pay attention...Very close attention.
Senior Member
OK Barry. Let's start off by saying that I I am sure there are lots of good things about you, but your method of discussion is not one of them. You talk in generalities and throw your opinions in as fact in just about every post. I'm not the first one on this board to say that.
I happen to have known several survivors of the Holocaust, and ALL of them would be very nervous right now seeing the ease at which this Countries "citizens" give up their rights, both young punks who don't know better, and old farts who should.
So, before I'll take a lecture about how rough life can be from you, you'd better grow up enough to at least be in long pants.
Daddy put you through school?
If you really think he's doing a good job, well, then you really haven't been paying attention. Nothing anyone else can do about that.
But, it is really disgusting to see so many people willing to give up ANY rights for ANY reason, especially the pack of bullshit lies this bunch of shitstains have concocted.
Ask someone who was in Germany in the late '20's to early '30's, if it was no big deal to give up a few rights, so they could be "safer". It's a slippery slope, and we've already started down it. And how do you really know what interests them? Hell, they arrest people for having anti-dumbya bumper stickers on their cars. What's next? Do you really know?
Easy life? Maybe. But you don't know anything about WW, and neither do I. But to throw out the "fact" that he is naive because he hasn't gone through all of the "hard knocks" that you have is opinion, and may be just plain wrong. You don't know. I would ask if the comment was directed at WW or the reading audience. Are you trying to discuss or just shout louder than the other guy? Trying to intimidate someone into shutting up or lower their status by trying to bolster yours is hardly a recipe for intelligent discussion. I'm probably close to the same age as you are, if not a bit older than you. I also know several survivors of the Holocaust. Many worked for/with me in the past. I don't know one who would say that we are anywhere near the culture that existed in Germany before or during the war.
Giving up individual rights? You're damn right I'm scared of that. It appears that you are too, at least you profess to be, so I fail to understand how you can align yourself with the Democratic party. Hell, that's what their platform is all about. Take as much as they can from the general public and let the government control what's right and what's wrong. They seem to think they know what's best, and you seem to agree. I don't. When did all of this start? Does the phrase "The Great Society" envisioned by Lyndon Johnson ring a bell? For the past 40 years our "rights" have been going away so slowly as to be imperceptible, mostly lead, in my opinion, by well meaning Dems. But nobody's ever been convicted of a crime for displaying a "Bush" bumper sticker, and to suggest as much is irresponsible.
You know, I posted yesterday that I find it amazing that the news media has dropped the Iraq coverage since Israel and Lebanon have been fighting. I don't like the news media, I believe they are slanted in their reporting. But I will say that if there's something going on, especially if it puts this administration in a bad light, they're on it like stink on shit. What happened to the story about the bumper stickers? Apparantly there wasn't anything that warranted a follow up by the news media. There was lots of coverage about the Bush wire tapping policy, but where were all of the stories about citizens who were being victimized? There were none. The news picked up the whining from the dems and ran with it. But they couldn't find ONE person who actually had their rights violated. You can't tell me that even if there was the slightest stink of a story the news wouldn't have been all over it. You want to be informed from the news media? Look for the parts of their stories that are missing and make some intelligent deductions.
If you want to convince someone of your point of view it needs to be rational and well presented. You've done a lot of bitching about Bush and the Republicans, but I have seen nothing that even remotely inclined me to rethink an issue. We know, you HATE HATE HATE HATE him. Hate is a strong emotion and hardly lends itself to intelligent discussion. It's one that seems to run rampant in the democratic party, too. You attack and spout dribble that I've heard over and over from lots of Air America personalities (yes, I do listen whan I can) who hate Bush and are angry in the democratic party. They don't make sense to me and neither does someone who wants to echo their words. Why are they angry? Because they can't seem to win. You have been asked by others over and over to give concrete examples backing up your position. A link to web page equating the Bush family to Hitler? C'mon, you're smart enough to know that's bullshit. I can come up with just as many links opposing your views that are just as radical, and in the case of Hillary, quite a few more. I don't put credence in them either and I'm certainly not going to build an opinion or a fight around them.
It's hard to present things in a way that makes others think. And it's damn near impossible to listen to ANYONE who refuses to listen back. If you want to influence others, you should look at your tactics, They stink, You are one who seems to think you know everything there is to know about government, policies and social problems, and your answer is to kick out "Dumbya." I don't resent your positions, but I resent your all knowing bloviated dribble that you constantly pass off as "fact."
So either discuss things rationally or don't discuss them. Change my mind. I would welcome it. Tell me why I should vote for Hillary or Kerry or Gore. Give me some examples of their stated policies and directions that will help this country. But don't spout insults and demeaning retorts to another human being who demands as much respect as you do and deserves the respect to be taken seriously. I believe that WW is a citizen of this country and is entitles to his opinion also.
Are You Threatening Me?
Just because you haven't noticed them being abused, doesn't mean they haven't been. How would you know anyway, as they don't have to tell you. The right you've lost is the right to be protected from unwarranted search and or siezure.
You've been so indoctrinated by the repukes constant harping about those damned liberals, you can't see the pubes stabbing you in the back.
WW did remark about my easy life. His assumption came first. He went to college, BFD. Dumbya went to college too. Just going means nothing, it's what you take away from the experience.
I've been making my own way since I was 15, got a few meals here and there from some good people, obviously not repukes, but never asked for any handouts. Joined the Army, as soon as I was old enough. I worked my way through college also, all while supporting a Family. 8 years of 18+ hour days, seasonal farm work, digging ditches, tutoring other students, ANYTHING to make a couple more bucks. I've paid my dues, and then some. So, I don't take it too kindly when some scholorship baby makes comments about my "easy life".
If you don't like my "colorful" descriptions of the people I feal are the real enemies of this Country, well too bad.
As I have seen it, and I pay attention, conservatives have let themselves be hijacked by a party that doesn't represent the majority, but fail to see that it's happened. They blindly follow around behind their "leaders", never asking any questions or challenging the opinions of their party leaders. This isn't the way the Democrats/Liberals work. Many, though not all, at least attempt to THINK before acting on a problem. Action without thought is almost always a recipe for disaster.
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