Middle east outcome

[WhiteWidow]

If you seriously think you live under a Nazi regime, then you have obviously led a very easy and sheltered life, and probably haven't had to overcome any kind of real challenges in life other than trying to figure out how to not take responsibility for your own actions.

Do you even know what the hell a Nazi is? I dare you to go up to a Holocaust survivor, or a POW survivor and try to explain to them how your life right now is just as bad as their was while they were in Nazi Germany.

You don't have to like this guy, a lot of people don't, But to trivialize all the victims of one of history's greatest horrors by saying you've got it just as bad, is ridiculous. Another good read: "Combine 13," by Clifford Hopewell (my grandfather).

Bush may suck, but he is not a Nazi, and you don't have it that bad.

[cigarsarge]

If you seriously think you live under a Nazi regime, then you have obviously led a very easy and sheltered life, and probably haven't had to overcome any kind of real challenges in life other than trying to figure out how to not take responsibility for your own actions.

Do you even know what the hell a Nazi is? I dare you to go up to a Holocaust survivor, or a POW survivor and try to explain to them how your life right now is just as bad as their was while they were in Nazi Germany.

You don't have to like this guy, a lot of people don't, But to trivialize all the victims of one of history's greatest horrors by saying you've got it just as bad, is ridiculous. Another good read: "Combine 13," by Clifford Hopewell (my grandfather).

Bush may suck, but he is not a Nazi, and you don't have it that bad.

Way to go WW...It's good to see a young guy thinking. That sums up the Nazi thing in a nutshell.

As far as Bush making things worse in the Middle East and Korea...The truth is easy to see. Anything Bush might have done is small in what they have done to themselves and the rest of the world. I personally think Bush is doing well in his policy with these thugs.

9-11 was a wakeup call to America and the Western World. The countries that would sponser or condone this act must be made to realize we will not accept their actions. If it takes bugging a few phones or monitoring some bank transactions of people that are associated with terrorists...Well lets do it. Most of these guys are not American citizens and have no Constitutional rights. The Constitution was drafted for American citizens...Not some terrorist group. I don't think the government has any intrest in DVM's or my affairs.

My problem with Bush is his domestic policy. He seems unable to get the lid on problems at home...Gas prices, crime, ect...Something Democrats can't seem to get right either.

If big leg Clinton is all the demos can field this comming election...Well DVM...I won't be voting Democratic. I bet she would try to socialize pet health care.

[ggiese]

Found this in the LA Times - funny shiz...

IT IS TIME for Angelenos to take up arms. No, we are not the most likely Hezbollah recruits — so many of us being either Jews or Western imperialists or both — but sometimes history presents no choice. Last month, Los Angeles decided to make Beirut its sister city. In retrospect, this may have been poorly thought out.

But what's done is done. And now we must act. Had we been brother cities, maybe we could let our little brother take a few licks, lose a couple of buildings and a bridge or two, and then give him a lesson about how to protect himself next time. But Beirut is not our brother city. She is our sister city, and when someone picks on your sister, you can't just sit there.

We, it turns out, have a lot of sisters. In fact, Los Angeles has 23 sister cities — more than any other American city. And when your family is that big, some members are going to turn out to be the kind of girls who stay out late, hang out with the wrong guys and get themselves in trouble. I'm not worried about Bordeaux, France; Vancouver, Canada; or Auckland, New Zealand. But I'm keeping an eye on Split, Croatia; Lusaka, Zambia; and Jakarta, Indonesia.

One of our oldest sisters, however, is Eilat. Which is in Israel. That's right, our sisters are fighting each other. And as the only U.S. city with sisters in both Israel and Lebanon, we are the only ones qualified to go over there as peacekeepers and end this thing. This is why Washington has been waiting and doing nothing. This is our job.

Just as the fighting broke out, Los Angeles actually had a small delegation of troops stationed in Beirut to celebrate the new siblinghood: City Council President Eric Garcetti and his girlfriend, Amy Wakeland; Councilman Dennis Zine and Gus Malkoun of the city Bureau of Engineering and his family. Although Garcetti and Zine left before the fighting started, and Wakeland took off on a flight that was in the air when the Beirut airport was bombed, the Malkouns stayed on to fight. Or at least to hide until the airport opens.

We must join them. We have been eager over the years to celebrate with our sisters — listing their names on the walls of City Hall, taking foreign exchange students, that crazy Los Angeles Sister City Festival in September at the La Brea Tar Pits — but we also must be there during the less happy times, such as during precision bombing.

So, for the next month, we need to stop our developing and agenting and illegal immigranting and ship off to the Middle East. Meanwhile, our council will work on scoring Damascus as a sister. We'll have this thing fixed in no time. And then we're going to have a big family meeting and persuade Mom to get her tubes tied.

[ggiese]

Sorry, Barry - but I disagree with just about everything you're saying concerning "issues" in the Middle East. Our current situation has much more to do with what has been done in the PAST (BEFORE Bush) and more to do with the perceptions the muslim world has concerning our meddling in their affairs. They use our association with Israel as the means to prove their point, but they actually despise us on our own merits.

Unfortunately, we've done a fantastic job of feed those flames ourselves. Back in the 50's, 60's, etc. (when Bush was frolicking around in his diapers) we were about setting up puppet governments in many of those countries. We backed them, we funded them, we supported them. Democrats and Republicans equally!!! Whether it was to stop the spread of communism, or to satisfy our growing need for oil, good or bad (at the time) that's what we did. We even backed, supplied and supported Sadam Hussein at one point.

Well - we're paying the price now. So what do you suggest we do? Before you say we should engage in a dialogue with these people - understand - we would have to break all ties with Israel in order to even begin a discussion. And then remove all of our forces from ALL middle eastern countries - allow all of the countries autonomy - let them do as they please... (i.e. develop nuclear weapons, set up theocratic states like the Taliban did in Afghanistan, etc....).

Yep - let's be isolationist in ideology - let's pull all of our factories, businesses and other enterprises out of all of those countries. That's what the terrorists want...

Let's close the borders to travel to those regions I mean, after all, we don't want to piss off the locals by sharing western customs with them (i.e. - woman allowed to walk around with face, hair and legs exposed). That's what the terrorists want...

And after all of that, if you're so naive as to believe that's what it's going to take to gain peace in the middle east - brother, you have your head buried in the sand up to your armpits... The radical muslims want to establish a muslim empire - one that is capable of reaching out and smacking down those that offend them - and that's what you'd be allowing them to do...

Our biggest enemy is our own greed. But we don't view it that way. We see it as the fruits of our hard work. You cannot possibly convince me you are willing to give up all the things the American society has afforded for you - nice cars, houses, air conditioning, plenty of food, nice clothes, EDUCATION, free press, free thinking, free expression of ideas, vacations, sweet smelling perfume/cologne, Nike/Adidas/FUBU tennis shoes, Ray Ban/Maui Jim/Oakley sunglasses, fine cigars, fine wines/scotch/booze, etc., etc., etc. And unless and until you do - and you are on equal footing with these nutballs - we're going to suffer their wrath. You see they - along with a lot of other nutballs in the world - honestly believe you have those things because you exploited them, plundered them, raped them, robbed them, etc. of those things. They honestly believe they will live their paltry existence until such time they are in heaven - with 27 virgins and all of the things we've had all of our life. We are the devil - they are the righteous...

So let's go ahead debate whether those bastard Republican's, and their "big business" agenda, is better/worse than the righteous Democrat's and their "social" agenda (funded by big business) iin curing the world's ills...

Until then - we have no choice but to battle them on their soil - a place where they are coming in droves to confront our well trained/well equipped army. You know - WAR...

Or - I suppose we could always pull our troops and set them up around our country and wait from them to fly more planes into our buildings - or car bomb population centers - or... Well, you know... We are a soft target inside our own borders, after all...

[SmokinDVM]

Sorry, Barry - but I disagree with just about everything you're saying concerning "issues" in the Middle East. Our current situation has much more to do with what has been done in the PAST (BEFORE Bush) and more to do with the perceptions the muslim world has concerning our meddling in their affairs. They use our association with Israel as the means to prove their point, but they actually despise us on our own merits.

Unfortunately, we've done a fantastic job of feed those flames ourselves. Back in the 50's, 60's, etc. (when Bush was frolicking around in his diapers) we were about setting up puppet governments in many of those countries. We backed them, we funded them, we supported them. Democrats and Republicans equally!!! Whether it was to stop the spread of communism, or to satisfy our growing need for oil, good or bad (at the time) that's what we did. We even backed, supplied and supported Sadam Hussein at one point.

Well - we're paying the price now. So what do you suggest we do? Before you say we should engage in a dialogue with these people - understand - we would have to break all ties with Israel in order to even begin a discussion. And then remove all of our forces from ALL middle eastern countries - allow all of the countries autonomy - let them do as they please... (i.e. develop nuclear weapons, set up theocratic states like the Taliban did in Afghanistan, etc....).

Yep - let's be isolationist in ideology - let's pull all of our factories, businesses and other enterprises out of all of those countries. That's what the terrorists want...

Let's close the borders to travel to those regions I mean, after all, we don't want to piss off the locals by sharing western customs with them (i.e. - woman allowed to walk around with face, hair and legs exposed). That's what the terrorists want...

And after all of that, if you're so naive as to believe that's what it's going to take to gain peace in the middle east - brother, you have your head buried in the sand up to your armpits... The radical muslims want to establish a muslim empire - one that is capable of reaching out and smacking down those that offend them - and that's what you'd be allowing them to do...

Our biggest enemy is our own greed. But we don't view it that way. We see it as the fruits of our hard work. You cannot possibly convince me you are willing to give up all the things the American society has afforded for you - nice cars, houses, air conditioning, plenty of food, nice clothes, EDUCATION, free press, free thinking, free expression of ideas, vacations, sweet smelling perfume/cologne, Nike/Adidas/FUBU tennis shoes, Ray Ban/Maui Jim/Oakley sunglasses, fine cigars, fine wines/scotch/booze, etc., etc., etc. And unless and until you do - and you are on equal footing with these nutballs - we're going to suffer their wrath. You see they - along with a lot of other nutballs in the world - honestly believe you have those things because you exploited them, plundered them, raped them, robbed them, etc. of those things. They honestly believe they will live their paltry existence until such time they are in heaven - with 27 virgins and all of the things we've had all of our life. We are the devil - they are the righteous...

So let's go ahead debate whether those bastard Republican's, and their "big business" agenda, is better/worse than the righteous Democrat's and their "social" agenda (funded by big business) iin curing the world's ills...

Until then - we have no choice but to battle them on their soil - a place where they are coming in droves to confront our well trained/well equipped army. You know - WAR...

Or - I suppose we could always pull our troops and set them up around our country and wait from them to fly more planes into our buildings - or car bomb population centers - or... Well, you know... We are a soft target inside our own borders, after all...

Actually, I never said our previous policies concerning the Middle East weren't fucked up, because they were. The big problem is, dumbya's cowboy attitude has made an already bad situation worse. War, and occupation, should NEVER be your first line of action.
Taking out the Taliban was justified. Too bad dumbya decided not to finish the job before going to Iraq, which was his original target all along. Hell, Iraq was a stabilizing force in the Middle East, no matter what you think of Saddam. It was extremely secular, compared to other countries in the region, even those we outwardly support. They did NOT harbor terrorists, WMD's, or anything else that was a threat to us. We effectively handed power to the Iranians, who have no qualms about actively supporting terrorists.

So, maybe we should have taken a lesson from the radical muslims? How about putting some money into Lebanon, an already rare democratic country in the region? Why not build a community center, school, or hospital? You can't force democracy on anyone, they have to want it. By always having military action as the first response to everything in the Middle East, we only fuel many more generations of terrorists. Did you know that we GIVE, not loan, $4billion to Isreal every year, but Lebanon, a one year old fledgling democracy, we gave a total of $40million? Don't you think it would be money better spent to foster democracy in a country that wants it, rather than try to force it on one that doesn't? Now, they are leaning away from democracy again. Dumbya didn't create the bad situation in the Middle East, he made it WORSE.

Look, if the people in these countries think the radical groups are the only ones who give a shit about them, they'll welcome them. If they want them, let them have them. Them and their 72 virgins.

I can't believe you actually brought out the "we have to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here" line. We're creating more terrorists every day, than we have the ability to kill off. We're fueling the problem right now, not helping it.
The definition of insanity is; repeating something over and over, getting the same result, and always expecting a different one.

Do I think the Democrats have a better plan and direction for the U.S.? Overall, yes. Is it without its problems? No, but it's better than the simpleton approach being allowed to happen now. BTW, why exactly does a diplomatic and humanitarian approach to the problem require breaking ties with Isreal? And why should we really care? If Isreal can't see the benefit in helping people, not jews, not muslims, not christians, but people, then Fuck 'em. Let's stop the insanity now. And, if not now, when?

Hey, I know what we should do. Let's all build bunkers so we can be safe from all the boogeymen.

[cigarsarge]

Ok Barry...For starters Iraq was a stabilizing force in the Middle East. Sadam ruled for a long time. In a country that has the warlord system going he was in power for a long time....Stabilizing in that area...I agree.

Now lets look at the human cost. How many citizens did he kill to stay in power. How many people through out the world lost their lives because he allowed terroists to train and live in his country? How can you say Iraq did not support terrorism when their leader was in fact a terrorist? A few holdouts are causing problems...But overall they are welcoming our help in their new way of live.

As far as money to Israel and Lebanon...Israel is our ally. Lebanon is not. Lebanon had a democratic election...That is a given. They elected a government that is fostering hate against America all over the Middle East. Giving money to the enemy...What are you thinking?

Now lets address fighting them there...Not here. Sounds like logic to me. You take the fight to your enemy...If you think that enemy is out to destroy you. Based on your logic we should give extremest countrys large sums of money, abandon our allies, pull out of the Middle East, and wait for them to build on their democracy. Where is that chain of thought flawed?

Isreal has tried to help their neighbors. Seems to me that Israel tried to help Palistine...They gave land back to them. What did Palistine to...They lobbed missels into Israel. Anything you do for radicals is not enough. They don't care about humane efforts. They only their Relligon based government to be world wide...At any cost.

[cigar no baka]

Sorry, Barry - but I disagree with just about everything you're saying concerning "issues" in the Middle East. Our current situation has much more to do with what has been done in the PAST (BEFORE Bush) and more to do with the perceptions the muslim world has concerning our meddling in their affairs. They use our association with Israel as the means to prove their point, but they actually despise us on our own merits.

Unfortunately, we've done a fantastic job of feed those flames ourselves. Back in the 50's, 60's, etc. (when Bush was frolicking around in his diapers) we were about setting up puppet governments in many of those countries. We backed them, we funded them, we supported them. Democrats and Republicans equally!!! Whether it was to stop the spread of communism, or to satisfy our growing need for oil, good or bad (at the time) that's what we did. We even backed, supplied and supported Sadam Hussein at one point.

Well - we're paying the price now. So what do you suggest we do? Before you say we should engage in a dialogue with these people - understand - we would have to break all ties with Israel in order to even begin a discussion. And then remove all of our forces from ALL middle eastern countries - allow all of the countries autonomy - let them do as they please... (i.e. develop nuclear weapons, set up theocratic states like the Taliban did in Afghanistan, etc....).

Yep - let's be isolationist in ideology - let's pull all of our factories, businesses and other enterprises out of all of those countries. That's what the terrorists want...

Let's close the borders to travel to those regions I mean, after all, we don't want to piss off the locals by sharing western customs with them (i.e. - woman allowed to walk around with face, hair and legs exposed). That's what the terrorists want...

And after all of that, if you're so naive as to believe that's what it's going to take to gain peace in the middle east - brother, you have your head buried in the sand up to your armpits... The radical muslims want to establish a muslim empire - one that is capable of reaching out and smacking down those that offend them - and that's what you'd be allowing them to do...

Our biggest enemy is our own greed. But we don't view it that way. We see it as the fruits of our hard work. You cannot possibly convince me you are willing to give up all the things the American society has afforded for you - nice cars, houses, air conditioning, plenty of food, nice clothes, EDUCATION, free press, free thinking, free expression of ideas, vacations, sweet smelling perfume/cologne, Nike/Adidas/FUBU tennis shoes, Ray Ban/Maui Jim/Oakley sunglasses, fine cigars, fine wines/scotch/booze, etc., etc., etc. And unless and until you do - and you are on equal footing with these nutballs - we're going to suffer their wrath. You see they - along with a lot of other nutballs in the world - honestly believe you have those things because you exploited them, plundered them, raped them, robbed them, etc. of those things. They honestly believe they will live their paltry existence until such time they are in heaven - with 27 virgins and all of the things we've had all of our life. We are the devil - they are the righteous...

So let's go ahead debate whether those bastard Republican's, and their "big business" agenda, is better/worse than the righteous Democrat's and their "social" agenda (funded by big business) iin curing the world's ills...

Until then - we have no choice but to battle them on their soil - a place where they are coming in droves to confront our well trained/well equipped army. You know - WAR...

Or - I suppose we could always pull our troops and set them up around our country and wait from them to fly more planes into our buildings - or car bomb population centers - or... Well, you know... We are a soft target inside our own borders, after all...

George, save your breath, Barry is not here to discuss this issue, just to spread his anger and hatred towards Republicans, and anyone who disagrees with him.

[SmokinDVM]

George, save your breath, Barry is not here to discuss this issue, just to spread his anger and hatred towards Republicans, and anyone who disagrees with him.

Now cnb, it's just you man, it's just you.

[SmokinDVM]

If you seriously think you live under a Nazi regime, then you have obviously led a very easy and sheltered life, and probably haven't had to overcome any kind of real challenges in life other than trying to figure out how to not take responsibility for your own actions.

Do you even know what the hell a Nazi is? I dare you to go up to a Holocaust survivor, or a POW survivor and try to explain to them how your life right now is just as bad as their was while they were in Nazi Germany.

You don't have to like this guy, a lot of people don't, But to trivialize all the victims of one of history's greatest horrors by saying you've got it just as bad, is ridiculous. Another good read: "Combine 13," by Clifford Hopewell (my grandfather).

Bush may suck, but he is not a Nazi, and you don't have it that bad.

Easy life?! Listen to young college boy talk about easy life. You need to STFU before you shove your keyboard deeper into your mouth.

I happen to have known several survivors of the Holocaust, and ALL of them would be very nervous right now seeing the ease at which this Countries "citizens" give up their rights, both young punks who don't know better, and old farts who should.

So, before I'll take a lecture about how rough life can be from you, you'd better grow up enough to at least be in long pants.
Daddy put you through school?


If you really think he's doing a good job, well, then you really haven't been paying attention. Nothing anyone else can do about that.
But, it is really disgusting to see so many people willing to give up ANY rights for ANY reason, especially the pack of bullshit lies this bunch of shitstains have concocted.
Ask someone who was in Germany in the late '20's to early '30's, if it was no big deal to give up a few rights, so they could be "safer". It's a slippery slope, and we've already started down it. And how do you really know what interests them? Hell, they arrest people for having anti-dumbya bumper stickers on their cars. What's next? Do you really know?

[ggiese]

Hell, they arrest people for having anti-dumbya bumper stickers on their cars.

Where was this at? I'd not heard of this...

Actually, Clinton was more well known for his making life miserable for his critics than Bush ever has been...

[SmokinDVM]

Where was this at? I'd not heard of this...

Actually, Clinton was more well known for his making life miserable for his critics than Bush ever has been...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9492566/detail.html

http://www.joplinindependent.com/dis...lins1091290323

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=75151

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable

http://www.pressaction.com/news/webl.../aclu12092004/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0429-07.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in644005.shtml

http://newsmine.org/archive/security...sh-sticker.txt

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16704

And I could go on all day. Obviously the "mainstream" media, or where you read/watch/listen to the news isn't paying attention either.

[ggiese]

Awwww, c'mon... You're not serious, are you???

#1 - http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/9492566/detail.html

#2 - http://www.joplinindependent.com/dis...lins1091290323

#3 - http://www.11alive.com/news/news_art...?storyid=75151

#4 - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable

http://www.pressaction.com/news/webl.../aclu12092004/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0429-07.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in644005.shtml

http://newsmine.org/archive/security...sh-sticker.txt

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16704

And I could go on all day. Obviously the "mainstream" media, or where you read/watch/listen to the news isn't paying attention either.

#1 - Under a city code in Ferndale, Kittila was charged with disorderly conduct for inciting people to honk their horns in a busy part of town. The charge is a misdemeanor with a possible penalty of a $500 fine and/or 90 days in jail. A war protester encouraging people to honk their horns is picked up for DC- a minor misdemeanor? And you find that strange??? Okay.... (Barry - they routinely arrest Jehovah's Witnesses as well for complaints they receive from people who don't appreciate them going door to door, but somehow I don't think it's part of the Republican conspiracy).

#2 - At least two people were arrested, and stories from witnesses report this was with little provocation, as our people could not move back fast enough because of so many people behind them. Do ya think that was a tad bit slanted??? An article written in the first person about his personal experiences?? Puhhhlllleeeeaaassseee.....

#3 - An undercover DeKalb County Homeland Security detective was assigned to conduct surveillance of the protest and the protestors, and take the photographs. The detective arrested Childs and another protester after he saw Childs approach him and write down, on a piece of paper, the license plate number of his unmarked government car.

"They told me if I didn't give over the piece of paper I would go to jail and I refused and I went to jail, and the piece of paper was taken away from me at the jail and the officer who transferred me said that was why I was arrested," Childs said on Wednesday.

Oh, I can guarantee there is more to this story then what "Childs" said... If it's a problem, I assure you the system will not allow it's abuse...

#4 - Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula threw out the disorderly conduct charge against Neel, declaring, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

See....

#5 - The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed a federal lawsuit today on behalf of five men who were arrested after they stripped down to thong underwear and formed a human pyramid in anticipation of President Bush’s motorcade procession through Lancaster County. The men attempted to re-create the infamous image that emerged from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq.

Oh, c'mon, Barry - a human pyramid of guys naked except for thong underwear??? They lock up drunken college students for far less...

God I'm getting a headache from reading this nonsense...


I'm routinely paid to attend various company's annual meetings, where I am instructed to remove anyone who attempts to disrupt the meeting. Similar to some of the episodes you cite.

Free speech does not mean we are totally free to say what we want, when we want, where we want... Many argue we can - and I'll tell ya - it'll get you arrested some times... It even happened while Clinton made his speeches and appearances...

But to say that our country is going in the toilet and we're heading towards a totalitarian regime because these are the things that are happening, is akin to saying our society is doomed because we don't have a TRUE baseball world series...

[SmokinDVM]

Awwww, c'mon... You're not serious, are you???



#1 - Under a city code in Ferndale, Kittila was charged with disorderly conduct for inciting people to honk their horns in a busy part of town. The charge is a misdemeanor with a possible penalty of a $500 fine and/or 90 days in jail. A war protester encouraging people to honk their horns is picked up for DC- a minor misdemeanor? And you find that strange??? Okay.... (Barry - they routinely arrest Jehovah's Witnesses as well for complaints they receive from people who don't appreciate them going door to door, but somehow I don't think it's part of the Republican conspiracy).

#2 - At least two people were arrested, and stories from witnesses report this was with little provocation, as our people could not move back fast enough because of so many people behind them. Do ya think that was a tad bit slanted??? An article written in the first person about his personal experiences?? Puhhhlllleeeeaaassseee.....

#3 - An undercover DeKalb County Homeland Security detective was assigned to conduct surveillance of the protest and the protestors, and take the photographs. The detective arrested Childs and another protester after he saw Childs approach him and write down, on a piece of paper, the license plate number of his unmarked government car.

"They told me if I didn't give over the piece of paper I would go to jail and I refused and I went to jail, and the piece of paper was taken away from me at the jail and the officer who transferred me said that was why I was arrested," Childs said on Wednesday.

Oh, I can guarantee there is more to this story then what "Childs" said... If it's a problem, I assure you the system will not allow it's abuse...

#4 - Pennsylvania District Judge Shirley Rowe Trkula threw out the disorderly conduct charge against Neel, declaring, "I believe this is America. Whatever happened to 'I don't agree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'?"

See....

#5 - The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed a federal lawsuit today on behalf of five men who were arrested after they stripped down to thong underwear and formed a human pyramid in anticipation of President Bush’s motorcade procession through Lancaster County. The men attempted to re-create the infamous image that emerged from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq.

Oh, c'mon, Barry - a human pyramid of guys naked except for thong underwear??? They lock up drunken college students for far less...

God I'm getting a headache from reading this nonsense...


I'm routinely paid to attend various company's annual meetings, where I am instructed to remove anyone who attempts to disrupt the meeting. Similar to some of the episodes you cite.

Free speech does not mean we are totally free to say what we want, when we want, where we want... Many argue we can - and I'll tell ya - it'll get you arrested some times... It even happened while Clinton made his speeches and appearances...

But to say that our country is going in the toilet and we're heading towards a totalitarian regime because these are the things that are happening, is akin to saying our society is doomed because we don't have a TRUE baseball world series...

Going door to door is completely different than peaceful public protest.
It's also not a private company's meeting.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I see multiple violations in those links. Funny how you don't.
And that's just the 1st Amendment, their violations don't just stop there.

[WhiteWidow]

Actually I paid for most of my school by working, the rest was paid for by scholarships that I earned. In addition to going to school full time, I was also a Cadet, a full time job in itself. If you want to find facts about how badass the Corps of Cadets at A&M is they won't be hard to find. As for my dad he is 56 years old and getting deployed to Iraq in December. All that giving up rights stuff is BS, about the only thing different in anyone's life now is that is more of a pain in the ass to fly anywhere, which, guess what it should have been anyway. Like sarge said, the only rights they're taking away are those of criminals, who should have none anyway. Let me know when your phone gets tapped. And guess what the reason this place is so badass and you will talk shit about it but not move anywhere else is because we elect our leaders and they can only stay there for 8 years max.

[SmokinDVM]

Actually I paid for most of my school by working, the rest was paid for by scholarships that I earned. In addition to going to school full time, I was also a Cadet, a full time job in itself. If you want to find facts about how badass the Corps of Cadets at A&M is they won't be hard to find. As for my dad he is 56 years old and getting deployed to Iraq in December. All that giving up rights stuff is BS, about the only thing different in anyone's life now is that is more of a pain in the ass to fly anywhere, which, guess what it should have been anyway. Like sarge said, the only rights they're taking away are those of criminals, who should have none anyway. Let me know when your phone gets tapped. And guess what the reason this place is so badass and you will talk shit about it but not move anywhere else is because we elect our leaders and they can only stay there for 8 years max.

I won't discuss the "badass" corps of cadets at a&m, as I don't really care. I did my service in the REAL Army.

I don't give a crap about airline security, if that's what you want to call it. I fail to see how taking off my shoes prevents terrorist acts.

How do you, or anyone else, know their phones aren't being tapped? NO ONE IS OVERSEEING THE ILLEGAL ACTIONS OF THIS ADMIN.
Has my, or your, property been searched? How would you know? They don't have to tell you.

The POTUS can only stay for eight years. The rest of the dipshits can stay indefinitely, especially when re-elected by scared ignorant masses.

[Shelby07]

Actually, I never said our previous policies concerning the Middle East weren't fucked up, because they were. The big problem is, dumbya's cowboy attitude has made an already bad situation worse. War, and occupation, should NEVER be your first line of action.
Taking out the Taliban was justified. Too bad dumbya decided not to finish the job before going to Iraq, which was his original target all along. Hell, Iraq was a stabilizing force in the Middle East, no matter what you think of Saddam. It was extremely secular, compared to other countries in the region, even those we outwardly support. They did NOT harbor terrorists, WMD's, or anything else that was a threat to us. We effectively handed power to the Iranians, who have no qualms about actively supporting terrorists.

So, maybe we should have taken a lesson from the radical muslims? How about putting some money into Lebanon, an already rare democratic country in the region? Why not build a community center, school, or hospital? You can't force democracy on anyone, they have to want it. By always having military action as the first response to everything in the Middle East, we only fuel many more generations of terrorists. Did you know that we GIVE, not loan, $4billion to Isreal every year, but Lebanon, a one year old fledgling democracy, we gave a total of $40million? Don't you think it would be money better spent to foster democracy in a country that wants it, rather than try to force it on one that doesn't? Now, they are leaning away from democracy again. Dumbya didn't create the bad situation in the Middle East, he made it WORSE.

Look, if the people in these countries think the radical groups are the only ones who give a shit about them, they'll welcome them. If they want them, let them have them. Them and their 72 virgins.

I can't believe you actually brought out the "we have to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here" line. We're creating more terrorists every day, than we have the ability to kill off. We're fueling the problem right now, not helping it.
The definition of insanity is; repeating something over and over, getting the same result, and always expecting a different one.

Do I think the Democrats have a better plan and direction for the U.S.? Overall, yes. Is it without its problems? No, but it's better than the simpleton approach being allowed to happen now. BTW, why exactly does a diplomatic and humanitarian approach to the problem require breaking ties with Isreal? And why should we really care? If Isreal can't see the benefit in helping people, not jews, not muslims, not christians, but people, then Fuck 'em. Let's stop the insanity now. And, if not now, when?

Hey, I know what we should do. Let's all build bunkers so we can be safe from all the boogeymen.

Remember what I said about what's NOT in the news? The story broke a while back that Saddam did in fact have weapons of mass death. You can say that they were old, but it still would have killed people, and they were weapons that Saddam was bound by treaty to get rid of. He denied ever having them. About the same time many high ranking officials in his regime were coming out saying that he had WMD's that have been hidden in Syria, and he was in fact developing nuclear capability. There was a huge flurry of retorts by the dems which quickly subsided and the story "went away." But have you noticed that the "Bush lied" line is no longer being used by them? There were also documents found in Zarquawi's safe house that linked saddam to Al Queda, but, again, that story has been ignored by the news media. I can only surmise that they now realize that Bush didn't lie, but they aren't talking about it. Think about it. I am convinced that Iraq had WMD and we will find out where they went eventually.

The middle east has been teaching hatred of America for many, many years. Even our so called allies have been doing it. It's in their school systems and their culture. Are we breeding terrorists? I don't think so. I think perhaps they are coming of age and the war is bringing them out, but I don't think they are converting because we are there. It's been in their culture for years and diplomatic efforts by past administrations failed to discourage it. Terrorist strikes against the US would have happened eventually. 9/11 would have only been the beginning. There have been several major plans to attack us on our own soil that have been thwarted because of our improved ability to gather intelligence, which was definately lacking pre 9/11. The plan to destroy the WTC had been in the making for 2 years or more, long before Bush took office.

I also believe that the war was necessary. At the time Saddam was defying all of the nations of the world, and the UN (another questionable organization) was united in their opinion that he had to put up or shut up. Instead he continued his course and thumbed his nose at the world. At the time of our entry into Iraq, the majority of politicians in this and other countries, including Kerry and Hillary, gave authority to the President to take military action. Then the election came up and they all backpeddled. Hell, Kerry was being laughed at throughout the election with his famous vote for it, then against it. I was there, we all were, but it seems some of us don't remember.

What, exactly, is the plan that the Democrats have? I have yet to hear it, and maybe if I do I can change my mind. Diplomacy? We tried diplomacy for years only to find that terrorist cells were being formed all over the world with the intent of attacking us. Isreal tried the diplomatic route with Lebanon for the past 7 years. In the mean time, the Hezbollah's armed themselves to the teeth and aimed their missiles at Isreal. Then they entered the country, shot up a number of Isreali villages and took 2 soldiers hostage. The Isreali's felt justified in retaliating because of the direct threat on their northern border, and the fact that they were attacked while they were in the middle of diplomatic talks with Lebanon. Now that Hezbollah is getting their ass kicked, Syria and the Hezbolla's are pushing for a cease fire. Isreal isn't going to let that happen and allow Hezbollah to regroup and rearm.

I would love to see the world at peace, but the reality is that it isn't. Until the day comes where we can talk with other cultures on a level field (and that means that tey have to be willing to see our side, too) there will be conflicts, and there will be times when force, as distasteful as it is, will be unavoidable.

[SmokinDVM]

Remember what I said about what's NOT in the news? The story broke a while back that Saddam did in fact have weapons of mass death. You can say that they were old, but it still would have killed people, and they were weapons that Saddam was bound by treaty to get rid of. He denied ever having them. About the same time many high ranking officials in his regime were coming out saying that he had WMD's that have been hidden in Syria, and he was in fact developing nuclear capability. There was a huge flurry of retorts by the dems which quickly subsided and the story "went away." But have you noticed that the "Bush lied" line is no longer being used by them? There were also documents found in Zarquawi's safe house that linked saddam to Al Queda, but, again, that story has been ignored by the news media. I can only surmise that they now realize that Bush didn't lie, but they aren't talking about it. Think about it. I am convinced that Iraq had WMD and we will find out where they went eventually.

The middle east has been teaching hatred of America for many, many years. Even our so called allies have been doing it. It's in their school systems and their culture. Are we breeding terrorists? I don't think so. I think perhaps they are coming of age and the war is bringing them out, but I don't think they are converting because we are there. It's been in their culture for years and diplomatic efforts by past administrations failed to discourage it. Terrorist strikes against the US would have happened eventually. 9/11 would have only been the beginning. There have been several major plans to attack us on our own soil that have been thwarted because of our improved ability to gather intelligence, which was definately lacking pre 9/11. The plan to destroy the WTC had been in the making for 2 years or more, long before Bush took office.

I also believe that the war was necessary. At the time Saddam was defying all of the nations of the world, and the UN (another questionable organization) was united in their opinion that he had to put up or shut up. Instead he continued his course and thumbed his nose at the world. At the time of our entry into Iraq, the majority of politicians in this and other countries, including Kerry and Hillary, gave authority to the President to take military action. Then the election came up and they all backpeddled. Hell, Kerry was being laughed at throughout the election with his famous vote for it, then against it. I was there, we all were, but it seems some of us don't remember.

What, exactly, is the plan that the Democrats have? I have yet to hear it, and maybe if I do I can change my mind. Diplomacy? We tried diplomacy for years only to find that terrorist cells were being formed all over the world with the intent of attacking us. Isreal tried the diplomatic route with Lebanon for the past 7 years. In the mean time, the Hezbollah's armed themselves to the teeth and aimed their missiles at Isreal. Then they entered the country, shot up a number of Isreali villages and took 2 soldiers hostage. The Isreali's felt justified in retaliating because of the direct threat on their northern border, and the fact that they were attacked while they were in the middle of diplomatic talks with Lebanon. Now that Hezbollah is getting their ass kicked, Syria and the Hezbolla's are pushing for a cease fire. Isreal isn't going to let that happen and allow Hezbollah to regroup and rearm.

I would love to see the world at peace, but the reality is that it isn't. Until the day comes where we can talk with other cultures on a level field (and that means that tey have to be willing to see our side, too) there will be conflicts, and there will be times when force, as distasteful as it is, will be unavoidable.

You're one of those, that claim WMD's existed in Iraq when we invaded. Where are they? Have you seen, or, as you always want me to do, can you provide, proof? And those "high ranking" Iraqi officials, those whose reports were deemed completely unreliable by the CIA? And the "moved into Syria" line has been so overused, and is so incredibly unsubstantiated, I can't believe anyone would be so gullible. Provide actual proof, which if dumbya and the pubes had would be plastered on fox "news" 24/7, or stop bringing up these fantasy stories.

As far as Isreal is concerned, they do almost as much to keep things stirred up as the terrorists. Attacking known terrorist strongholds is one thing, taking out the Lebanese infrastructure, removing the average persons ability to live in their homes, is unjustified.
Since the Middle East has been preaching hatred, and we haven't been giving them ANY reason to see it any other way, let's just keep doing the same thing. Remember the definition of insanity.

Just like every warmonger, you attack any Country, and the U.N., because they didn't back your boy when it came to attacking Iraq. Saddam was a neutered dictator. He had NO WMD's, hell, he couldn't even move freely in his own country. Sure, he was a dangerous man.
We forced out the remaining U.N. Inspectors, even as they were reporting finding NO VIOLATIONS.

I agree, sometimes force is unavoidable. It shouldn't be used as the first line of "diplomacy" however.


If any of you REALLY wanted to see/hear another viewpoint, they are readily available. You simply have to look. The Democrats proposals won't be seen on fox, so you'll have to go get them.

[Shelby07]

I won't discuss the "badass" corps of cadets at a&m, as I don't really care. I did my service in the REAL Army.

I don't give a crap about airline security, if that's what you want to call it. I fail to see how taking off my shoes prevents terrorist acts.

How do you, or anyone else, know their phones aren't being tapped? NO ONE IS OVERSEEING THE ILLEGAL ACTIONS OF THIS ADMIN.
Has my, or your, property been searched? How would you know? They don't have to tell you.

The POTUS can only stay for eight years. The rest of the dipshits can stay indefinitely, especially when re-elected by scared ignorant masses.

Lesse... the way our system works. The press would pick up a story from a well meaning public servant in Washington (nothing is secret in Washington) about some poor soul having their apartment searched or their phone tapped, the press would be all over it, verified or not, as an alleged violation of rights and we would at least hear about it for about a day. Then the dems in Washington would grab hold of it and call for an impeachment of Bush.

Isn't freedom a wonderful thing??

The rest of your points are unarguable, but not because they make any sense.

[WhiteWidow]

I won't discuss the "badass" corps of cadets at a&m, as I don't really care. I did my service in the REAL Army.

You were the one that brought up the difficulty of my college career. If you don't want to hear about my life, don't bring it up.

[SmokinDVM]

You were the one that brought up the difficulty of my college career. If you don't want to hear about my life, don't bring it up.

Check post #65